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August 6, 2008 at 8:46 am #149104MabiusParticipant
I wonder.. Was George Lucas so insightful and wise that he KNEW how growing up outside the “Jedi Order” would skew individual students minds? Thus ‘writing in’ that the force sensitive children were taken from their families and trained away from such influences? Just an off-topic thought.
(I must apologize for all the use of parentheses and quotation marks, but the points i’m getting across are, to me, more easily demonstrated using them.)
I admit I’ve been away for some time, and obviously am not as up to date as many, so if anything i say here is irrelevant, i apologise. I’ve read many of the threads since my return and am trying to be as informed as possible when posting.
Now a reply to the question on topic. In context, everyone has the “right” to call themselves jedi. Just as everyone has the inherent “right” to do anything they wish(all morals and ethics aside, since those are born only of human, and more often than not, cultural, input. Example: “what gives you the right to do this?!” response: “what gives you the right to tell me what i can and cant do?”). People must also face consequences, or on the other hand, experience rewards due to these actions they perform. I agree with Inari’s first thought on the jedi title issue.
“One of my thoughts about this is that it is because there is no actual definition of what a Jedi is, beyond the sometimes vague outlines given in the fiction. Perhaps if a standard of training, a code of conduct, a code of ethics and other documents were made and agreed upon, then those who abided by those would have the ‘right’ to the name Jedi.”
I had a similar discussion before with some people in the parkour comunity. Some people believe that doing flips and tricks with the body is considered parkour, while some disagree with this. The main problem in that community? There was a lack of a universal set of standards, as well as a lack of agreement on what was and wasn’t “parkour”..
Until everyone in the community has agreed upon standards of training, codes of conduct and ethics, and other things necessary for identifying and clarifying exactly what Jedi is and isnt, then everyone, everywhere will be able to freely call themselves a jedi.
I used to say that I was a padawan, or a jedi.. But now, I don’t. I may say that I follow a path as close to the fictional jedi as possible, but am I really a Jedi? I don’t think so, since in this reality, there is really no universally agreed upon set of requirements to be one. I choose to exercise my right to not call myself a jedi. Am I right or am I wrong? I don’t believe I’m either. Its personal choice.
Which brings me to an example: America was founded by a group of men. Who appointed them to be leaders? Themselves and their peers.(if not, then no one would have listened to them, right?) Who ultimately decided upon the laws and rules that would be in the defining documents of the countries culture? They did, because the people trusted them. They all stood on common ground because they all fought to be independent of british rule. What happened as a result of what they did? Contention. War. Death. But in the end the United states was born and obviously prospered in the eyes of the majority of the world.
Many, many things can be taken from the history of this country, both good and bad. My point in all of this, is that for the title “Jedi” to actually mean something, people who follow a path that they each call “Jedi” will have to come together and decide what it is and isn’t to be jedi. Until everyone deems this important enough to do, it will not be done.
The same goes for all important and large organizations. Every single organization begins with founder/s. whether appointed by the many, or by the few, or even by a single individual. The founder/s then make decisions about the organization. With, or without the input of the many. And it continues until the organization is “officially” formed and realized. And depending on the methods used in the forming, the organization may lose or gain members that disagree or agree.
In my opinion, When these standards are formed, they should be strictly enforced, because after all, why form them if they wont be adhered to? The important thing is to set these standards so as to reduce the amount of enforcing needed. Leeway is a bit sketchy.. People make mistakes. If the leaders(and yes every organization needs leaders) deem someone to be unfit, then so be it. Hopefully said leaders would never oust someone because of personal issues, thus this also needs to be included in the standards. Perhaps number of “offenses” leading to specific consequences..
Another inherent problem in organizations that set precedents.. There HAS to be a first. A first student, a first knight, a first master, a first leader(or group of leaders).. The problem lies therein. If there are no knights, or masters, how can anyone know what a knight or master would be?
It’s obvious somewhere along the line, people decided who was fit to be the first instructors. I would think those first few instructors would be the “leaders” of this group. Now it becomes difficult when we consider that not everyone will agree on everything. This is when compromise is usually used. If a compromise cannot be reached, it usually comes to a consensus. And whatever is decided is decided, and becomes “law”. And again some people may disagree and choose to leave the organization. This is unfortunate and it happens, but often everyone cannot reach common ground on everything, and some people choose to leave and seek another place where they can find common ground with other, like-minded people. Or these people can often form their own organization.
My main point is, it’s up to the leaders to decide basically everything about this organization. What method/s they use is ultimately up to them as a collective. It is my opinion that a set standard and codes of conduct, etc. Are the core of an organization. As I see it, the jedi sites are basically groups, not organizations, and especially not a unified organization. Not yet at least. Once the core is established for each, then they can individually become organizations. And then, it can grow even more, possibly coming together into a unified organization. I mean, how can someone striving for a realized jedi concept not want to come together with others that want the same thing? Of all people, I would think that someone looking to realize the jedi concept would be able to talk and come together with peers, to form a bigger and better community. Such an event would solidify what it means to be a jedi, and define even more what gives someone the right to call themself a jedi.
What I think needs to be established is whether this group’s objective is to remain a group, or advance itself even more to include the guidelines and standards that many want to see. If such standards and codes are in place, they need to be told to every new member, and made available for all to see before even joining. Perhaps even both objectives can be achieved somehow.. Perhaps by offering classes, guidance and training to everyone, regardless of if they are members or not, and having specific member-only classes and training(and other features) for subjects that not everyone would want or need in their personal path. Just one idea thrown out there, and I’m sure there are many others..
Thanks for reading. I hope I got everything across in the way I wanted, and I look forward to responsesAugust 6, 2008 at 2:10 pm #149107Anonymous
Mabius makes several valid points.Quote:Until everyone in the community has agreed upon standards of training, codes of conduct and ethics, and other things necessary for identifying and clarifying exactly what Jedi is and isnt, then everyone, everywhere will be able to freely call themselves a jedi.
This is the key. If everyone in the community does not agree, there will be different sects of Jedi. I think that many members can see this as happening right now because there is not a drive for unity as yet. When the drive to be united occurs, then consensus on what a Jedi is will become a possibility.Quote:The same goes for all important and large organizations. Every single organization begins with founder/s. whether appointed by the many, or by the few, or even by a single individual. The founder/s then make decisions about the organization. With, or without the input of the many. And it continues until the organization is “officially” formed and realized. And depending on the methods used in the forming, the organization may lose or gain members that disagree or agree.
Founders are recognized as being so by the community. You are talking leaders and, in this community, there is no solid leader. We have leaders of this group, leaders of that group. I will be more pointed here. Opie has his following. Inari and Jax have their following. Emz has her following. Moonshadow has her following. Many from one group will not follow the leader from the other group. There is too much division for there to be a solid founder. When the colonies rose up against Britain, the majority were behind the few leaders that they had. We do not see that here and that is why there is no move towards unity, no move towards standardization.Quote:Hopefully said leaders would never oust someone because of personal issues, thus this also needs to be included in the standards. Perhaps number of “offenses” leading to specific consequences.
Oh, that would never happen in this community.
And we have seen people who were banned even though three offenses were needed and they only had one warning.
ROFLMOLQuote:Once the core is established for each, then they can individually become organizations. And then, it can grow even more, possibly coming together into a unified organization.
This is the way that it has been going so far. Look at the unity that has happened. (Yes, I am being sarcastic.)
The problem with this community is that we have people who need to have their egos stroked. Anytime you say something against them, they are bruised and strike back, like a cobra. Or they take on their alternative persona Instead of coming down off the pedestal and discussing things as a real human being. Or they ban you. Sometimes without any warning. Sometimes because of personal things that occurred in personal messages and emails. That does not promote unity.
This community does not have one or two set leaders; it has many. The best thing that could have happened to this community did not happen at all. When TJW fell, instead of JUST Jedi starting up, the members of that community should have gone to another community and discussed setting up standards there. Instead, and I mean no disrespect but from my point of view this is the truth, JUST Jedi was formed in order to create unity. That does not appear to have happened. The creation of more and more sites that profess to teach is the last thing that we needed. We needed people to come to the few teaching sites that existed instead of having another site for teaching and learning crop up.
Apparently, no one has submitted a teacher’s application to the administrator or JUST Jedi. Maybe it is because the site was not needed. Maybe it is because there are only learners in the following at that site. Maybe it is because the teachers in the community are stretched to thin. Maybe no one wants to teach at that site. Maybe, just maybe, the site should look at what is going on in the community that would prevent people from wanting to teach there.
The same with other sites. I was a Jedi Scholar at Jedi Religion. That means that I was a teacher and that I had great understanding of the Jedi Path. I have never once been asked to teach at any site. I know that I am a little rough around the edges but there are others who state that they are blunt and straight-forward and get away with some of which I don’t get away with. I am a wealth of information even though you may not agree with all that I do. You deprive yourselves of much by judging me so harshly. You do the same with others as well. You need to ask yourself, ‘Why?’
There is one thing that is unique about the position which I have been placed by the members of this community. Because few in this community will have anything to do with me, I am, essentially, an outsider and I have an outsider’s point of view. I am not riddled with the ego problems that so many in this community have. I am not riddled with the need for people to see me as being a Jedi, something that many in this community suffer from. I am allowed to be me and see things from my own point of view, not from that of another.
There is a lot of ego in this community and much of that ego is the cause of all the problems that occur in the community. No one wants to compromise because that would be a strike against the ego. No one wants to give up their position as leader, which unity would require. You want to understand why the community cannot move forward, become united, and set standards? Look inwards first.
Jade LightAugust 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm #149109MemnoichParticipant
The right to claim the title of Jedi is that of anyone who feels they are trying to follow the Jedi path. If you look to fiction, Jedi was just the name of the path, like that of Christian, Buddhist, and more. You don’t have to be perfect for those groups to claim the name, you just have to try and follow their tenets. The same comes true for the Title Jedi, Even Padawans were called Jedi by commoners, simple put, because they were accepted into the Jedi order. So in short, If someone is trying to follow and learn about Jedi, then they have the right to Claim it.
In reality, like has been stated, there are no rule or guidelines, so until those are set, anybody has the right to that title. The biggest thing I keep seeing when it comes to rules and guidelines is reverse ego, pretend modesty, or at the very least, unneeded modesty. People in charge of sites saying “I’m no master, I’m not a knight, therefore I have no right to make these decisions”. They are trying to not come across as tyrants, dictators or anything else you can think of and that’s fine. As was stated, when our country was founded by many individuals, that choose the best people available, to make rules for them, to make the guidelines. As we constantly find out, they didn’t think of everything, and that’s fine. I mean do we really expect humans to be perfect, any of them? What is needed is lack of fear. Right now people are afraid of the image they portray to the rest of the community, they are afraid that if they say “we have these rules and standards” then they will lose students, and faculty. What this community really needs is for one site, one group, to make the hard choice and say “this is what we want to accomplish, these are our goals and our standards. This is what you’ll be if you finish”. A definition of master, or knight doesn’t need a full on, “you must have done everything on this list to become one” but it does need a basic standard of what is needed before you can be considered for the role. In fiction, it was the council, and the fellow knights that decided if they felt a candidate was ready for the testing or trail.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that we need to stop worrying about unifying the different groups; we just need to start creating our own standards and guidelines. If something doesn’t work, it can be changed as needed, but by putting something out there saying, “This is what we think it means to be Jedi, a Knight, a Master, a Padawan, an Archivist, a Healer, etc…”. If the other groups don’t agree with everything, that’s their choice. Remember in the fiction, not all of the temples taught things the same way, they had similar standards, but individual methods. The problem we have now is so many people trying to be modest; that no one seems willing to step up and do what is needed, and take charge. There are times when modesty is an asset, and times when it is a hindrance. Right now, we need leaders as well as instructors, at current, it seems all we have are founders and teachers.August 6, 2008 at 5:11 pm #149111JaxKeymasterQuote:I guess what I’m trying to say is that we need to stop worrying about unifying the different groups; we just need to start creating our own standards and guidelines. If something doesn’t work, it can be changed as needed, but by putting something out there saying, “This is what we think it means to be Jedi, a Knight, a Master, a Padawan, an Archivist, a Healer, etc…”. If the other groups don’t agree with everything, that’s their choice. [quote]
And that’s the philosophy we’re following here – it just isn’t public yet.August 9, 2008 at 3:00 am #149142CharlesParticipantQuote:This community does not have one or two set leaders; it has many. The best thing that could have happened to this community did not happen at all. When TJW fell, instead of JUST Jedi starting up, the members of that community should have gone to another community and discussed setting up standards there. Instead, and I mean no disrespect but from my point of view this is the truth, JUST Jedi was formed in order to create unity and all it has accomplished is more division. The creation of more and more sites that profess to teach is the last thing that we needed. We needed people to come to the few teaching sites that existed instead of having another site for teaching and learning crop up.
Now we hear the whining from JUST Jedi that no one has submitted a teacher’s application to the administrator. Maybe it is because the site was not needed. Maybe it is because there are only learners in the following at that site. Maybe it is because the teachers in the community are stretched to thin. Maybe it is because no one wants to teach at the site because of the politics that are played there and the bullying that occurs. Maybe, just maybe, the site should look at itself and ask itself what is going on there and elsewhere in the community that would prevent people from wanting to teach there.
From a certain point of view Just Jedi is doing exactly as you request, the discussing and setting of standards.
As for the Maybes, I must say, maybe not.Quote:I guess what I’m trying to say is that we need to stop worrying about unifying the different groups; we just need to start creating our own standards and guidelines. If something doesn’t work, it can be changed as needed, but by putting something out there saying, “This is what we think it means to be Jedi, a Knight, a Master, a Padawan, an Archivist, a Healer, etc…”. If the other groups don’t agree with everything, that’s their choice. Remember in the fiction, not all of the temples taught things the same way, they had similar standards, but individual methods. The problem we have now is so many people trying to be modest; that no one seems willing to step up and do what is needed, and take charge. There are times when modesty is an asset, and times when it is a hindrance. Right now, we need leaders as well as instructors, at current, it seems all we have are founders and teachers.
Agreed, and each group should have the courage and conviction to do what is being done here and walk forward despite oppositions. However, from someone who once was a leader, let me say, I can see why no one would want to take on that heavy burden for any period of time. You get nothing from it, and yet give all of yourself to it only to find in the end you can only accomplish so much, with so little, after so long.
I encourage any who can lead to do so, any who can bare that burden to do so, but likewise to know your limits and not to try to please everyone at the same time.August 9, 2008 at 8:33 am #149143inariParticipant
Please keep this thread to the stated topic, and please air any personal concerns or gripes about other communities and sites at that site or with the person involved, or they will be moderated. This is the first and last warning I will give on this issue.
Generally though, a lively and interesting conversation, it seems that most people do actually agree on the need for standards and definitions.
Inari.August 9, 2008 at 2:56 pm #149145Anonymous
I do apologize. I do want to make it clear that I do not have any personal problems with other sites, communities, or people. I am only giving examples and, unfortunately, in this small ‘community’, using examples appears like a personal vendetta or whatever but, rest assured, it is just an example.
To bring the topic back on track, in as far as standards, setting standards at one site will not bring unity to the Jedi realms. Nor will it mean that the standards will be accepted by all the members of the Jedi realms. This is especially true when the realm that creates the standards is viewed with animosity by the other realms. The same in regards to how individuals view the realm where the standards are created. This is the biggest problem within the Jedi realms. There must be a neutral area, a neutral realm, where these standards will be established. And they must be established without a certain teaching, such as being associated with this site or another site where teaching takes place for, it they are created by said site, they will be seen as perpetuating that particular teaching. Others will perceive it as that site pushing their agenda upon them. Thus, standards must be created in a neutral place, not in a site that is run as a teaching site.
Jade LightAugust 9, 2008 at 4:17 pm #149147Silver TalonParticipant
To a point, I agree. However, I don’t believe that the Jedi community is ready to do that. Neutral sites have been created hoping to unite the Jedi. United Jedi is one site and Jedi Alliance is another. Some interest has been shown; but mostly the response that has been received is that most say ‘it’s been tried before, it won’t work’ or ‘diversity is good.’August 9, 2008 at 4:43 pm #149148Anonymous
Perhaps it’s just me…but it seems a fairly uncomplicated issue is made complicated by the way it’s presented, more than the thing itself.
Standards, Definitions, are important to an extent.
The BIG THING is to keep them unpolitical…
What caused a lot of trouble for me, going through the Jedi Community, is that I personally think having martial arts training as a core of the Jedi is impractical and illogical. But others don’t… I would never use violence to halt violence unless it was an incredibly extreem thing where it was halting violence by accepting it upon myself – and then I would not use violence back. Or I haven’t. (Anything’s possible).
I’d rather be skilled in ways to stop violence without violent means or prevent it. Or be skilled in how to help once violence has occured?
EVERYONE having to learn martial arts leaves a pretty lopsided (and in my opinion – more often than not useless) group of people who have a skill they can seldom honestly use.
I mean…this has been a BIG deal to some, and where some real hostility has resulted by suggesting Martial Arts are a great fitness sports – but no better or worse than any other – for me, personally, has resulted in some bizarre and unexpected repercussions.
With such “hot button” areas – you can bet you’ve stumbled upon something political.
It’s the CORE of the Jedi – the basics – that are what are important anyway.
From what I’ve viewed in people trying to suggest “standards”, or “definitions”, there is always one of the politics that has enough in the group to bully all discussion or presentation out of meaning.
The presentation of what “standards” and “definitions” has to be really carefully done by very knowledgeable, “trained Jedi”, with balanced care and maturity. That last has been a problem, as I see it, because some members of the Jedi Community think making these decisions are like creating rules for an RPG game.
I’ve seen where some of a group of Jedi will begin speaking of Jedi banding together to save the day or even go to war – or another that feels wearing the Jedi robes are important for ceremonial occasions.
The “special” or “odd” occasion have been pushed to be made central into the Jedi.
These can be added for various groups – DIVERSITY EXISTS AND IS GOOD – just like some Christians have Sunday Communion and others are more heavily into water baptisism as part of belonging.
Here is where strong and balanced leadership has been lacking. A leader, or group of leaders, has to be able to keep on track and on focus with enough care not to accidentally exclude.
In my world, you usually have better have most of the work done before presenting it for approval. If it gets the big “down thumb” you have more work to do before presenting it again. If it’s argued-over, then let the people it’s presented-to make individual suggestions and ALSO WEED OUT THE POLITICS as something that isn’t crucial or core.
I think we all agree here, and I think the discussion that started it was a really good one, there need to be some guidelines that are “core” to the Jedi. Or how can anyone feel they can claim the title. (If they need to claim them?)
I’ve seen some pretty good starts in various places…
One other thing? If too much heavy-handedness is used – enough to stop conversation or make people uncomfortable speaking-up – it’s all-over.
Words such as “That’s enough – ‘we’ don’t do this or that – last warning” is fine for an eight year old. I hope more diplomacy and respect is used for adults?
Communication is key – and likely why it’s a course here – and it’s far more difficult and important skill than many of us realize. (Me included).August 9, 2008 at 5:01 pm #149149JaxKeymaster
Martial arts does not require solving violence with violence. That’s why I personally feel aikido is an ideal martial art for Jedi as it solves violence without violence. It allows a person to get involved in a physical confrontation and solve it peacefully, which is something we would expect from a Jedi, is it not? But of course you are right Asta, we don’t want physical altercations to be the only option available. Conflict resolution and de-escalation are part of the curriculum here as a student gets into the more advanced curriculum. There are also more in depth training programs if someone wants to learn to be an ‘accredited’ mediator in their professional life, which might be perfect for some Jedi.
I think the first step is to decide what the core standards and definitions are for Jedi in general. People are always welcome to go above and beyond an area of interest, but there should be a core that is consistent between all groups that sign on to the standards. I think most if not all people agree with that much. While it may not seem like it, we have moved towards more unified beliefs over time. There will always be other sites and detracting voices, but there is a core of people who are on the same page and are working on this area. A little more patience might go a long way for all of us. People are slow to change, even Jedi. There is movement forward. Try not to focus on what doesn’t seem to be working, allow the change to happen.
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