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July 13, 2008 at 5:43 pm #148914JaxKeymaster
I think that, many times at least, people don’t understand the difficulties in creating training programs. The reason most places address the beginning is because that’s all they can figure out! It takes the right combination of people, experiences, and also the skill set that comes from someone being a teacher offline with curriculum experience. Not to mention, the people that create training programs are rarely at a high enough level to make their path conscious while having a broad enough perspective to expand their experiences to what others need as well. You see, it’s that last part that is key. It isn’t just enough to reach a level, you have to surpass it to gain the perspective needed to teach it with wisdom and depth. There is a distinct lack of those types of people in the Jedi community. I’m not saying this as a criticism, just trying to bring perspective to this.
This Academy is trying to do this currently. We have an interesting mix of subject matter experts with teaching experience. Even with that we individually run into areas that we don’t have enough experience in, which makes the process more difficult. That’s why it takes the right combination of subject matter experts, so they all overlap to some extent.
Now, as far as recognizing previous work, that is a part of the future Academy setup. There will be equivalency tests for people to take to test into higher levels. There will be advanced training that I think virtually everyone in the community can benefit from in the conflict resolution, de-escalation levels and teaching and mentoring skills. However, there are also going to be courses in the middle of the curriculum that are necessary to fill gaps in training. Everyone is going to have gaps in their training, it’s just a natural product of self training I think. It’s not a bad thing, just something to address in time. Of course, we can’t make someone take a course. The only thing we can control is how we define a knight and how we test that knowledge and the attributes we expect. If you don’t want to meet our standards, that’s fine. We’re working on alternative routes that don’t end in Knighthood, but represent the training a person has done.
Beyond courses, we also want to do seminars from time to time – shortened courses that focus on just one topic for more advanced learners (typically). Hopefully that will fill a need for people who don’t want to commit to 3 courses a term for two years. I hope people realize though that no one is forced to go at a pace that is faster than they desire, that is just recommended for those with the time to do it to progress at a good pace through the knowledge level material.
I can only speak for myself, and hopefully the rest of the faculty here. We set our standards, as we believe are necessary. We don’t judge others for not wanting to meet them, it just means your path is different than we define it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t up for discussion either. We have to start somewhere, but over the years I expect things to shift and change as we learn and grow as a group and individually. I doubt major changes will come, but there will be adjustments for a maturing community.
I know there are many many different perspectives in the Jedi community, and many different attitudes. Before this goes too far off track, I hope people will remember that we are not all of those different sites. Every group is different. It’s human nature to react to situations we have seen before. When one site judges or is overly exclusionary, we assume or at least look for that in other sites in order to avoid that similar situation. But there is a lot of subtlety in the online realm that we would be able to see much more clearly offline. This site is meant to be a place where everyone is treated with respect, where drama is kept to a minimum. Intentions are not to be personal in these discussions, but to present different points of view. Basically, I’m asking that people don’t take things personally.July 14, 2008 at 11:19 pm #148928SetanaokoParticipant
I think that part of the problem is that a lot of sites aren’t really reputable. JadeLight, I understand the concern, and that’s why I don’t really seek the recognition as a knight. I’ve achieved the rank of Knight at Force Academy, but I don’t really need to have the recognition there or anywhere else. To acheive the rank of Knight or Master, I believe it should be those around you who call you as such-not you refer to yourself as such. That’s the true test of your rank.
I’ll admit however, I do let others know that I am a Knight of FA, and in being such, I hope that they will understand why I don’t attempt to make that rank in any other communities. Imagine Jedi Community as a planet, and each order is its own country. You can’t be the president of two countries at once. But that’s just me. If FA ever died, then I might strike out and focus my energies on another forum where I wouldn’t mind the recognition as a Knight of the site. For now, that’s not the case, and I continue to learn from every other forum I’m a member to, as well as try to help them grow.
As stated earlier, I believe the largest problem is knowing which Jedi Orders are legit, and which ones aren’t so legit. If we had a way to band together the legitamate Jedi Orders and create a system so that knights of those orders could be recognized across the board as being such-I would be all for it. I believe that it would be a good step towards loosely uniting the Jedi Community.
May the Force be with you,
Setanaoko Mizu OceanaJuly 15, 2008 at 8:22 am #148931Kol DrakeModerator
It would be no different for Jax if she decided to go to another college for further studies.. and they stuck her back in basic science and intro to physics for non majors. VERY boring for someone with her physics background and degree.
I guess the ideal situation would be to have ‘core courses’ which are the foundation of ‘what being/what a Jedi should know’…. as the springboard to other things. AND… to be able to say… yes, you have two years at some other place and that’s okay… and not necessary to take all these baby classes since your studies are far beyond those.
BUT.. I guess that is the ‘future academic equivalency’ deal…… which won’t be in place until the Intro and Intermediate courses are in play.
AND… a decision is made as to just what ‘Jedi core values/knowledge/training’ should be.July 15, 2008 at 10:35 am #148932inariParticipantQuote:BUT.. I guess that is the ‘future academic equivalency’ deal…… which won’t be in place until the Intro and Intermediate courses are in play.
AND… a decision is made as to just what ‘Jedi core values/knowledge/training’ should be.
Kol, mate, this looks a little like a dig at the faculty to me. Whether it is or not, we just cannot do all this as quickly as we’d like, because like everyone else we can only spend a certain amount of time per day on this work. If at some future time, Jedi educators can teach others without having to work at other jobs as well then I’m sure that things will move considerably faster. Lets all look forward to such a time, shall we?
But I’m sure you knew all that already.July 15, 2008 at 11:16 am #148934Anonymous
Kol said things exactly the way it is. For me, to have to redo the studies in order to meet the satisfaction of another site is like going back to nursing school. It bores me to death.
There was at one point a Jedi Equivalency Exam and I felt that it was a very good evaluation of what a Jedi had learned. I spent hours upon hours on that exam and returned it to whomever it was that was handling it only to be told that they were no longer using it. The JEA was a way to see what others had learned from other sites and, coincidentally, it was thrown to the wayside the minute I turned mine in . Trouble is that it was a good evaluation tool and I really, for the life of me, can not understand why it was thrown aside. I am not asking for an answer to that, so no need to answer.
Not to be rude but as far as Kol taking a dig at the faculty, didn’t we already have someone saying not to take things personally.
Jax stated: “Basically, I’m asking that people don’t take things personally. “
Maybe the faculty needs to practice what they preach.
Jade LightJuly 15, 2008 at 12:05 pm #148937JaxKeymaster
Addressing it as a dig doesn’t mean she took it personally, just addressing the underlying issue if that were meant as a complaint of a sort.
The equivalency exams were ditched a few years ago as new people took over sites and decided they didn’t want to just hand out ranks to people who hadn’t spent any real time at the location. You can’t just show up to a college, transfer your credits in, and graduate without actually studying at that college, and that’s the basic philosophy behind not using the exams for getting a rank.
Secondly, while they were good at showing knowledge, they were very poor at showing behaviors and attitude. There are people who would have a knight’s level of knowledge but are definitely not knights. And that doesn’t show on the tests. That will be addressed as best we can in the new trials. But those are separate from equivalency exams, which are simply to place a person in the curriculum.
As for why no new exams were created in the past for testing out, it was always intended here. As Inari said, however, the faculty has always had limited time to devote to things, and teaching students was always the highest priority, while equivalency exams were lower priority. I know that sucks for those with experience. It wasn’t intended to exclude people, it’s just the way things worked out. It’s being addressed now, as best we can. When the academy is ready to reopen you will be able to take some equivalency exams. That’s the best we can do.
But even with that, there will be some people that don’t work well with our system. That’s why we’re working to bring in more training groups with similar standards so people can have easily recognized training, at least between the groups involved with the Institute. In time, perhaps people will agree that our standards are high enough and consistent enough to allow the ranks awarded here to simply carry over to other sites. Maybe they won’t. In the end, does it matter?
We’re going to keep doing our best. Hopefully it’ll be of use to you. If not, hopefully you find something somewhere else.July 15, 2008 at 1:34 pm #148938Anonymous
Yoda On A Stick!!! It’s already beginning…AGAIN!
Can’t we just discuss ANYTHING – and hey – go ahead and get offended – but just keep talking!!!
This stifling of discussion to be “Jedi” is what makes Jedi go nowhere.
How about we just acknowledge we are adults who have something to say…? Kol made a point I’ve made. “HECK IF I’M DOING ONE MORE INTRO LESSON AGAIN!” All of them I’ve done are yet posted if the site is yet up…there are at least three or four.
The teachers always say, “We only have so much time”.
Like the students do? That we can take these classes at a certain time, and do them all, and usually we don’t even hear from our teachers in the same week. Or same month…if ever.
I understand about lessons. I understand they take some time.
But what Kol suggested is exactly what needs to happen.
Everyone wants to teach but no one wants to be a student.
…that is a problem….
I’m just going to come out and say it … These Jedi sites and classes need to “get real”.
Shouldn’t Jedi love learning for learning’s sake? Shouldn’t they teach for teaching’s sake?
Everything (not speaking of any ONE site but ALL of them) have to get so “official” and exclusive. I’d like to know why?
There are some really good lectures – maybe need to be updated – from the old days. There are some good ones from recent classes.
There are good lessons from many Jedi Boards.
Why is everyone so territorial? I mean – no one is making money off them or getting special credit for doing them.
Authorship of a lesson shows something – and to me it’s someone who feels they have some knowledge to pass-on.
No more than that.
And some will say, “But you never want to teach”. Right – I don’t – but if there were people who needed learning I’d either ask to use lessons or adopt them for students. But very, very few are seriously asking for learning right now… THAT IS THE SHAME OF IT.
This arguing and snipping only oils the wheels to spin faster as the car goes nowhere.
Can anyone just dialogue like normal people without shushing others – or getting so offended they tell others “to go away if you don’t like it”? Or say there is a dig, or a whatever…
We’re adults and people. No one is better than anyone else here.
C’MON!!!!July 15, 2008 at 2:49 pm #148939AnonymousQuote:Addressing it as a dig doesn’t mean she took it personally, just addressing the underlying issue if that were meant as a complaint of a sort.
I will use a line that many have given me in the past: “Take it to PM”. The concern should have gone off the board. This is the double standard that I see often on these boards: If the instructor perceives that the poster is attacking them or their school, they will reprimand the poster right on the board. Yet, if an instructor is being questioned on the board, they ask the person to PM the problem to them. One is allowed to reprimand the other on the forums while the other is not allowed to reprimand the instructor on the forum. Double standards prevail in the Jedi Community and I love pointing them out. As far as I am concerned, instructors have a problem with this because they do not want others to see them as fallible or their site as fallible. Just something for you to think about.
Now, I have to agree with Asta in that everything is so … official. Heck, the Jedi don’t even have a set philosophy upon which standards can be established. They don’t even have a set mission statement! And here we are having such official classes. At Jedi Religion (I am sure you all are sick of me talking about Jedi Religion), there were discussions. If a person felt they had knowledge, they posted a lecture and everyone responded to it. That is all that was done. So a person would post a lecture on the first line of the Jedi Code and people would discuss it. No official class was established. People shared what they knew and were happy about it. The members were ranked according to the quality of their postings. Your postings needed to be well thought out and showed improvement over time in order to move up in rank.Quote:Why is everyone so territorial? I mean – no one is making money off them or getting special credit for doing them.
Authorship of a lesson shows something – and to me it’s someone who feels they have some knowledge to pass-on.
Because, against the Jedi ‘philosophy’ of remaining humble, many in the community would like credit for the work that they do. Another hypocrisy of the community. That is the thing, though. I went to a community, an ‘academy’, the other day to check it out and all the classes require you to register in order to even see what they are about. I don’t like to go through registering for sites, let alone classes, just to view them. That is ridiculous. Needless to say, I zapped that site from my favorites list.
The Jedi Community should be an open community of sharing. This closing lessons off to people is just ridiculous and smacks of a need to be recognized – hubris. Everyone should share their knowledge willingly and openly; that is the heart of being a Jedi. That is something that is going to the wayside with all these academies and such. It just smacks of a need to be recognized by people saying, “Yeah, I studied under….”. I could give a rat’s butt for whom people study under. I am only concerned with what you learned.
Jade LightJuly 15, 2008 at 5:17 pm #148940JaxKeymaster
I’m really confused now. I think what is happening here is the negative events from other locations are being assumed to occur here. Please take a step back and take a deep breath.
Asta, the clarifications we made were simply to explain why they haven’t happened in the past. If I didn’t make it clear (which is always possible), we are correcting those issues now. We are creating advanced content. We will have placement tests. These tests won’t be on board until the curriculum is written of course, but they will be there. We have created courses that are meant for the real world, not just learning for learning sake. That doesn’t work with adult learners, and we understand this. Again, I can only speak for this site and our goals for the curriculum. That may not be the case elsewhere, but that is out of my control. We are focusing on fixing as many errors from the past as possible in our curriculum. Please keep that in mind. I know you don’t get to see what we’re doing, but it will be released for student viewing as early as we can.
I believe this point was implied as a complaint, so I’ll address it. The reason for not just testing people for knighthood is that it’s not a single event, but a process. We need to know who we’re testing, not just read something they wrote or talk to them once or twice. Most of us will only meet each other once or twice, and some never. We don’t want to determine someone is a Knight with such limited information. Our reputation depends upon the quality of people that train here. If we have said they are a Knight, and they then run around not acting like Knights, the title means absolutely nothing. Making sure people do some training here helps to maintain quality control. Now, what only the faculty know about is how the advanced training occurs. All I can say right now is that is isn’t going to be just like the early classes. We expect that advanced learners will be able to direct aspects of their own training and work with faculty in more of a mentoring situation. Perhaps that will aleve some of your fears. Until we can explain everything, I’m afraid you’re just going to have to give us a little benefit of the doubt and at least save the criticism for when you know how our system is setup. Then we’ll gladly take the criticism. But until then, please don’t lump us in with other training programs, or assume it’s the same as it was 2 years ago, as it isn’t.
I’ve personally seen how important it is to get to know people. I’ve known some Jedi offline who, after spending time with them, are not the people they portray online. Yes, they had knowledge, but there were some other pretty big flaws that they didn’t appear to be working on that made them less than Knights. Therefore, that remains in the back of my mind as I think about testing people. It’s very difficult to catch these issues in short experiences, but we’ll do our best to maintain quality.
Jade, the comment Inari made was not personal, it was clarifying a situation that many people fall into. Therefore, it didn’t need to be in PM. She did not address it in a way to be personal. I’m sure that would have been clear with verbal communication, but isn’t as clear in written communication. We all have to be careful, but that’s why I cautioned against taking offense when none was intended. Try reading the words with an even tone, assuming the person meant no harm, only to be clear. See how you react at that point. The difference can be night and day.
I’m aware there is a lot of negative history in the Jedi community. These all happened at other websites. I know that I personally have tried to remain as neutral as possible, as I am not emotional regarding this thread. It’s not easy to make that clear with language, so I continue to just say it outright. This discussion isn’t personal. Try to remain objective.
What I hope is that everyone can take a step back and feel the sincerity in my words. I have no interest in bringing negativity around this group. I also have no interest in the divisive politics that can occur. I only want to help create a system to train Jedi that is inclusive for those who wish to put the work in and learn. For my part I’ll do my best to keep the curriculum focused and applied to real life. We may not get it completely right the first time, but we’ll adjust as we learn. You have no real reason to trust that what I’m saying is true, but I know it is, and hopefully you can feel that as well. If not, you’ll just have to see when we release the information and open back up.July 15, 2008 at 8:30 pm #148941Anonymous
Just about my favorite people in this whole Jedi world are on this thread right now… Well, definately some of my faves. I actually really like a lot of “Jedi” – but you guys know who you are and some of my best “Jedi Times” have been at Jedi Academy and talking with the bunch of ya…
Pretty much nothing any one of you says or does can bother me much – but honest to wookie-goodness – what is all this lather about?
Who took a “dig” who didn’t, who is saying what…
Are we talking or are we having some sort of contest I don’t know about…
Jax – and Inari – I know the Academy is changing it’s class-focus and I’m dying to see it. This wasn’t about classes – or all that – it was more about friendly and mature adult discussion.
You know – one thing adults need to remember in a teaching and student capacity is that those being taught may have a lot more general skill than those teaching. But the teacher knows most what they are teaching – and the student wishes to acquire that skill or info.
I see a constant disconnect between teacher and student and being able to put that aside and just talk mono et mono.
I mean a lot of you have specific knowledge – and at the same time are a little wet behind the ears because of youth. And that’s COOL – but not speaking as equals off school time seems a little… well… weird.
When you’re new to the community – and taking the Jedi Path seriously – you want to be shown the ropes and have someone to guide you. After going through the ropes yourself you soon find you still want to learn – but also want a slightly different relationship with who were once more mentors are now more friends who are also teaching.
Maybe I have it wrong – but that’s what I’m reading between the lines here. I know I’ve thought it a couple times myself.
Don’t get me wrong – when we’re at school we have teachers and students. But I think we’re all adult and sophisticated enough to drop it between – and be able to discuss ideas without being told to be quiet and patient and go sit in the corner.
I don’t think anyone MEANS to do this – but it is how it seems – sometimes.
No harm – and hope no one gets too mad at my candor.
I have so little time right now…I just have to throw it out there.
I do care…
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