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  • #148902
    Anonymous

    I totally agree with Brandel in that it is the majority who will decide who is a Jedi. I also agree that the standards can be based upon what is within the movies and the books. I am not sure yet about that philosophy part and am strong enough to say that I am not certain about this fact. I feel that the material that is presented in the books and movies needs to be condensed down into a concise philosophy. Currently, what is presented is quite scattered. For example: In the movies and the books, there are several times when Jedi are reminded to control their emotions. This aspect of being a Jedi should be written into the philosophy of the Jedi. In essence, the statement (and I am not into quotes so I will ad lib here) “Control, a Jedi must have control”, should be written in the philosophy statement as “A Jedi seeks to control their emotions at all times.” The quote itself should not be seen as being the philosophy because there are many quotes about control. If one insists on using every quote as the philosophy, the statement of philosophy would be pages upon pages long. What is presented in the books that can contribute to proper Jedi philosophy should be summarized and made into a Jedi Statement of Philosophy. But it needs to be realized that these things need to be placed within a real life context. I have seen too many choose to put emphasis on a particular aspect of the Jedi in the books and movies and fail to realize that that aspect is not needed in the real world.

    Jade Light

    #148903
    Brandel Valico
    Participant

    It is indeed very scattered in the fiction. It’s alot like fables and myths. In that it’s hidden within a broader story and you do have to spend some time in digging it out understanding it and then applying it to your own life. For the most part much of the fiction can be ignored for what it is Fiction. But the Philosophy found there can and slowly but surely will be compiled and used to create the core of Jedi Philosophy. It’s there now actually if you have access to all the vast number of books and movies and comics. It’s also very much in sync with itself. There are very few contradictions and those are almost always due to the person having made them eventually being a darksider in the end.

    The problem is very few have access to the complete collection available. Perhaps an idea would be for those with that access or even a book or two or the movies even. To write down all the stuff they feel is part of the Jedi Philosophy. Each person just taking one novel or comic or RPG or Movie posting it all up for everyone to see. Have those with sources all ready being done do this also.

    Then once this is done we take the sources that have been done by more then one person. (I think at least 5 separate people should do each source whenever possible) we compare what they all had that is the same as well as what is different. If they all thought it was valid as part of the philosophy it’s in. If the majority thought it was it’s in as trial material. If the minority thought it was then it’s considered fringe knowledge.

    We then take all the things from the various sources and compare them for duplicate messages. Decide which ones are best suited for the general message of the concept and keep that one. While considering the rest as simply rephrasing. 

    This would be a vast undertaking to be sure but if the entire community took part could be done in a year or so. We would then have the Jedi Philosophy trimmed down and made fairly clear for everyone who wants it.

    Then we would of course have a core basic concept that we could expand on and look back to when we have questions. When a new idea is brought forth it’s compared to that core and accepted as valid or not on if it meshes with it or not.

    There would of course need to be some minor adaptation for real world use. For example Jedi are guardians of the Galaxy is silly to use. But Jedi are Guardians of the World would fit in reality currently. (No I’m not saying that would even be there just made up a phrase for example reasons only.)

    I for one would gladly take part in this idea. In fact I will do it even if no-one else does. I have almost a complete set of reference materials (Some comics and a few kids books still to go) so I’ll start doing this at my home site http://jedisanctum.yuku.com/ starting tomorrow. I’ll list the  source material I’m going to begin with in the Hall of Knowledge Forum since that seems like a good place for this. Anyone else who wishes to take part is welcome to do so. Just start a topic listing the source material you have chosen to do so with in the title of your topic. So people know what ones are being done. Then if someone else also wants to do that same source material they can just do so in the same topic.

    Once they are all done we move on from there to sorting through and compiling.

    I’ll post a message at other boards with the idea also. Hopefully anyone else reading this who is willing to do so will also post a message about doing this at other sites as well. Now I’m not saying this has to be done at my home site. Do at at what ever site you want lets just all try and let each other know whats being worked on.

    #148904
    Anonymous

    This is exactly what I was thinking. I was actually going to put up a section at Jedi Nexus for this but the Sanctum is a better place, I feel. I would be more than happy to participate in this project. The way that I was going to set it up was to let people open a thread for the book or other that they are going to do. Then a few others can join in on that one to provide different perspectives. This way all perspectives can be gotten. I will take teamwork so this could be something that will help people learn to work together.

    Yes, I do feel that philosophy is a statement, not a collection of quotes such as what has been proposed elsewhere. It is basically a description of what Jedi believe, not how they act. I would be more than happy to edit and help write the philosophy statement.

    Jade Light

    #148905
    Anonymous

    I acknowledge I tend to come from a more base and practical side of things.

    I believe I know from where this topic descended…

    1.)  Are we talking about individuals following the Jedi Path – or are we talking about the Jedi Community at large?

    2.)  Is a “philosophy” even possible – or is what we lack, as a group, a mission statement?

    3.)  If we do begin setting “stadards” of training, behavior and the like – who are to police it and offline we are on our own.

    4.)  In learning it would be wonderful to have some public general initial training.  Most of the very initial training across the forums are quite similar. 

    5.)  Even the Jedi Code has many, many detractors who call themselves “Jedi”…  Many people make up their own code – and that is well accepted.  If we cannot agree on the Jedi Code how are we going to agree on anything else?

    **************************************************************

    I know my own mission on the Jedi Path.  It may be more interesting for people to write – around the various forums (as you have begun Brandel) thier personal mission statement as a “Jedi” or for their “Jedi Paths”.

    Those similarities may be far more interesting and important – than gleaning scraps of saying from the very diverse books of Star Wars.

    (Brandel – I wrote a bit more at Jedi Temple – but condensed here.)

    Thanks for doing this project!!!

    – Asta

    #148906
    Jax
    Keymaster

    Brandel, whether your idea does anything for philosophy within the community or not, it could be an interesting project.  I hope you get somewhere with it.  I know Streen has some information on his site, you might want to drop him a line.

    Quote:
    1.)  Are we talking about individuals following the Jedi Path – or are we talking about the Jedi Community at large?

    Can you explain how you view the difference Asta?

    Quote:
    2.)  Is a “philosophy” even possible – or is what we lack, as a group, a mission statement?

    I think the lack of purpose in general causes a lot of issues.  Those Jedi who seem to have their act most together have a personal purpose at least for their training, with a focus and a goal.  It seems like those who don’t decide what their purpose is flounder more.  But that’s a general observation and may not mean much. :-)

    Quote:
    3.)  If we do begin setting “stadards” of training, behavior and the like – who are to police it and offline we are on our own.

    I can only speak for the Academy.  We create standards that we enforce as best we can.  We know the only place we can do that is here, and not anywhere else.
    When it comes to policing behavior beyond here, that has to come from the individual.  Honestly, if they don’t aren’t working to adjust their behavior, it will show eventually online, and definitely show offline at Jedi gatherings and such.  But you know, there are always times when we have to police our own behaviors, so this isn’t really new. 

    Quote:
    4.)  In learning it would be wonderful to have some public general initial training.  Most of the very initial training across the forums are quite similar. 

    Perhaps, but the depth of training varies significantly.  I believe that the real solution to the problems before us is quality training.  Only with good training can people gain the skills to overcome their emotional triggers, learn to interact in ways that minimize conflict, and improve the world by their presence.  Some of us got our training on our own, offline through various sources, but there are a few places to get this online as well. 

    The only problem with this is that those who often cause the most problems don’t train.  Sure, they say they do, but their actions show otherwise.  But I choose to focus on what we can affect – those that want to learn.  This is a very long process, training Jedi and building a functional Jedi community.  It’s easy to get impatient.  It can be done though, and has to if we don’t want to disappear before long. 

    Quote:
    5.)  Even the Jedi Code has many, many detractors who call themselves “Jedi”…  Many people make up their own code – and that is well accepted.  If we cannot agree on the Jedi Code how are we going to agree on anything else?

    But is it the Jedi code that matters, or that we all act as a Jedi should act?  I don’t need to recall the Jedi code to know what I should do in a situation.  The code is a tool, it isn’t an outcome.  I think part of the problem is that people have focused too much on the tools that are really just there to help the person get to the point of living as a Jedi should live.  I may not be explaining that very well. 

    I view the debate over the code like this.  Imagine the Jedi path is a house.  There are certain things that go into building a house.  You need certain materials, and they need to happen in a certain order often.  But, the details of that aren’t specific.  If someone uses a hammer and another person uses a nail gun, but the house gets built just the same, with the same quality, does it matter which tool they use?  If someone finds the code useful for them, and another doesn’t, but they both exhibit the attributes of a Jedi, does it matter?

    #148907
    inari
    Participant

    Wow, I really started something here, didn’t I? Reading through all these, my first thoughts were ‘What came first, the chicken or the egg?’ Then, I realised that while I was musing as much about the principle of ‘rights’ as much as anything else, the discussion has gone on a bit of a tangent, but that’s OK, diversity of ideas is good.

    Now, just one little thing about the Jedi Code. I’ve said this before but will just quickly restate it. I am not against having a Jedi Code, but what I would like to see is the ‘Jedi Code’ be expanded into to a more complete code of ethics and/or code of conduct that a non-jedi can read and understand how a Jedi operates. The reason I am interested in this expansion and clarification is because I am a member of several professional organisations that use such codes, and I think that it is a good thing to have them. It’s my personal opinion, that’s all.

    #148910
    Anonymous

    Hey Inari – You know – starting a very good conversation is the heart of teaching… ;D

    I am c&p Jax’ questions…  Hope this works…lol

    Quote
    1.)  Are we talking about individuals following the Jedi Path – or are we talking about the Jedi Community at large?
    Can you explain how you view the difference Asta?

    Actually – I mean are we talking about the individual or the group?  Are we asking for a personal description or a statement about what we see for the “group” – meaning – the Jedi Online Community.

    Quote
    2.)  Is a “philosophy” even possible – or is what we lack, as a group, a mission statement?
    I think the lack of purpose in general causes a lot of issues.  Those Jedi who seem to have their act most together have a personal purpose at least for their training, with a focus and a goal.  It seems like those who don’t decide what their purpose is flounder more.  But that’s a general observation and may not mean much. :-)

    I was actually speaking of “the group”.  I know I have my own philosophy and mission as one who follows the Jedi Path.  But I do not see one for the Jedi Online Community as a group – not so much a philosophy – but a mission statement. 

    Perhaps a “philosophy” is needed first – but a mission statement really clarifies a group’s essence.  I do not think the Jedi will ever move forward – or understand itself – without some sort of mission statement.

    The Jedi Code is a philosophy – and I think it’s a very good one – but may need some further definition if used.  It’s actually THE ONE standard Jedi writing I’ve seen that is an active philosophy – not just disparate quotes from movies or fiction – that is widely used and understood.

    Quote
    3.)  If we do begin setting “stadards” of training, behavior and the like – who are to police it and offline we are on our own.

    I can only speak for the Academy.  We create standards that we enforce as best we can.  We know the only place we can do that is here, and not anywhere else.
    When it comes to policing behavior beyond here, that has to come from the individual.  Honestly, if they don’t aren’t working to adjust their behavior, it will show eventually online, and definitely show offline at Jedi gatherings and such.  But you know, there are always times when we have to police our own behaviors, so this isn’t really new. 

    I agree – and I think we should keep judgement down to a certain level as well – I have yet to meet anyone in the Jedi Online who doesn’t have one or many flaws because we are people…  We are not Jedi – and the Jedi of fiction were people or other beings with flaws.

    It’s when the flaws become abusive or dangerous that I become concernerned. 

    Worse – in my experience – are those who most often claim the mantle of “Jedi” and think they can enforce and police who are most often the worst offenders of being abusive of their perceived own powers and rights.

    Quote
    4.)  In learning it would be wonderful to have some public general initial training.  Most of the very initial training across the forums are quite similar. 
    Perhaps, but the depth of training varies significantly.  I believe that the real solution to the problems before us is quality training.  Only with good training can people gain the skills to overcome their emotional triggers, learn to interact in ways that minimize conflict, and improve the world by their presence.  Some of us got our training on our own, offline through various sources, but there are a few places to get this online as well. 

    The only problem with this is that those who often cause the most problems don’t train.  Sure, they say they do, but their actions show otherwise.  But I choose to focus on what we can affect – those that want to learn.  This is a very long process, training Jedi and building a functional Jedi community.  It’s easy to get impatient.  It can be done though, and has to if we don’t want to disappear before long. 

    Training a Jedi needn’t be a long process because we are after all lifelong in our training.  It is why I think there must be one place people can at least go to train independently and not on a class schedule.

    Frankly – I haven’t seen many taking classes – but for those new to the community.  I seldom/never see the older/long-time Jedi taking and completing classes.  There really isn’t much of a model out there for lifelong learning and training. 

    I see a lot of self-training.  And that’s great…  But I have sensed an expectation for others to “class train” when it obviously almost never works.

    But I expect that will work itself out.  

    Quote
    5.)  Even the Jedi Code has many, many detractors who call themselves “Jedi”…  Many people make up their own code – and that is well accepted.  If we cannot agree on the Jedi Code how are we going to agree on anything else?
    But is it the Jedi code that matters, or that we all act as a Jedi should act?  I don’t need to recall the Jedi code to know what I should do in a situation.  The code is a tool, it isn’t an outcome.  I think part of the problem is that people have focused too much on the tools that are really just there to help the person get to the point of living as a Jedi should live.  I may not be explaining that very well. 

    I view the debate over the code like this.  Imagine the Jedi path is a house.  There are certain things that go into building a house.  You need certain materials, and they need to happen in a certain order often.  But, the details of that aren’t specific.  If someone uses a hammer and another person uses a nail gun, but the house gets built just the same, with the same quality, does it matter which tool they use?  If someone finds the code useful for them, and another doesn’t, but they both exhibit the attributes of a Jedi, does it matter?

    I just meant there is no cohesive…er…anything among the Jedi Community.  I am the last one to want strignent rules and regulations – but I see most – the lack of any central mission statement, or writing, or anything CENTRAL that makes the Jedi as an organization have a single thing they can point-to that unites us as a group.

    I’m not asking for everyone to be lock-step.  I just mean – is the Jedi Code our central writing or one of them? 

    Okay – for me – my central philosophy is very much the Jedi Code. 

    I agree about what you say about the Jedi Code (or I think it is what you meant, Jax) in that it grows and changes with understanding. 

    That is a living piece of writing – and I find it inspired.

    Like the Jedi – we grow to understand the body/mind/spirit connection – and that emotion is part of us – but only part of the whole – and we will not allow the blindness of emotion to rule us.

    On and on…we all know that our interpretation of the Jedi Code is very individual – and that also makes it a living and universal philosophy.  (Our philosophies to change as we grow through life).

    But I always hear that JEDI ARE TO DEFEND. 

    Most seem to think that is to learn martial arts in the very unlikely event we stumble upon a physical altercation and decide to take-part.  Or to protect ourselves…in the event we are physically attacked.

    I thought it meant to defend when we see WRONG.  Most often – 98% of the time – it’s not to physically use violence – but possibly to physically defend if someone is hurt – or to mentally defend if someone is being mentally abused – or – well – that sort of defense is unlimited in scope.

    But here’s what I didn’t see…

    I’ve seen a lot – and experienced A LOT – of the most horrendous bullying, abuse of power, seen the cruel and the ignorant, allowed as normal in the Jedi Online Community far more than any other online group I’ve known (for me – film and politics boards).  I’ve even seen the illegal shrugged-aside among the “Jedi”.

    Instead of allowing it over and again – I recently blogged about it.  People found the blog and told eachother – and it frankly depressed me that it became so popular.

    It wasn’t for the general “Jedi” public – and when I realized (rather late) that it is what it became I closed it down.

    But it reached who I called “the bullies” and I suspect it’s one of the first times anyone stood up and said, “This isn’t okay”, and they actually heard it.  I had to stoop to their level to do it – but NEVER on the public forums – they had to come find it to read it – and I called it garbage as I wrote it.

    I am not proud of it – nor do I regret it – someone, I felt, had to do it.  I wish it weren’t me – but I was one of their victims and it was my turn to either face them or run and hide.

    I didn’t think Jedi ran and hid from other Jedi?

    It’s also when I decided that the name “Jedi” wasn’t one I wanted – because to me it no longer means something positive in this online community we are talking about.

    I do not accept the “right” to claim the name “Jedi” –  for this reason.

    I’m a person – first and always – on the Jedi Path.

    I don’t mean to sound belligerant – it’s merely my personal view.

    #148911
    Anonymous

    A couple of comments:

    “Frankly – I haven’t seen many taking classes – but for those new to the community.  I seldom/never see the older/long-time Jedi taking and completing classes.  There really isn’t much of a model out there for lifelong learning and training.”

    I can only answer for myself – I was at Jedi Religion for a couple of years before it closed and was educated there, through the discussion boards, through conversations with other Jedi, classes, etc. I was eventually made a Knight, then a Jedi Scholar. This community does not recognize that work. They want you to go to their academies and gain credit there. I will admit that this has always been a sore spot to me because I have essentially done the work already and now I am being asked to do it again. I ask those who run these academies to ask themselves, “Would I want to go to another board and have to take classes over again when I already learned the material once before?” I don’t have all the time in the world because I am in school fulltime, work fulltime, and do volunteer work. I have recently thought about taking classes just for fun, to see if there is anything that I haven’t learned but I really think that it is ridiculous that a person who has been in the community for as long as I have has to take the same stuff over and over again because the present community members, some of whom have not been in it as long as I have, will not recognize what that person has already done. This is one of the reasons that I feel that there exist a kind of prejudice against the older Jedi as well as a huge gulf between the older Jedi and the newer Jedi.

    “I’ve seen a lot – and experienced A LOT – of the most horrendous bullying, abuse of power, seen the cruel and the ignorant, allowed as normal in the Jedi Online Community far more than any other online group I’ve known (for me – film and politics boards).  I’ve even seen the illegal shrugged-aside among the “Jedi”.”

    I have to agree. I belong to several online communities and this is the only community where such behavior has been fostered and allowed to be committed. That is a sad commentary because of the fact that people here are trying to immulate the Jedi. And I agree with Asta in that sometimes people need to get down to the level of the bullies because that is the only thing that they understand. It is a shame that only two people had the nerve to openly say something about the bullying and abuse of power. The community was given a chance to stand together against abuse and failed miserably. Even if people did not like the way that it was being done, they still should have stood up and said something. I have attended many rallies against many causes, some of the rallies not conducted in the way that I would have done so, but I still attended because of the cause needing my support. That is why this community fails to become united – people would rather stand aside rather than help one another when they need help. Even if it is simply saying that you do not agree with the method but agree with what is being said, that is enough. It would have made the bullies aware that it was not just Asta and I who were pointing out the bad behavior and that others felt that way. I received two notes from people saying that they agreed with what we did but did not want to get their reputations tarnished by saying so. So they let Asta and I do the dirty work for them while they retain their fine Jedi name and reap all the benefits and Asta and I get lambasted for taking on the bullies. And now you have to ask who has the right to claim the Jedi name? Do the ones who sat on their hunches while Asta and I did the dirty work deserve the Jedi name? Do the ones who feared ruining their reputation by standing up for what is right and protecting others so they didn’t bother to even say that they agreed deserve the Jedi name? Go figure it out.

    You want to know why I shun the Jedi name right now? It means nothing. Why not? Because those two notes showed me what Jedi in the community hold dearest – their reputation and the right to call themselves Jedi. They don’t hold the principles dear because they would rather allow abuse to occur and not stand up to it, allow two others take on the bullies and take the fall, rather than living up to what that name stands for – standing up for what is right. Until this community gets its act together and can stand together, support each other, and not permit that kind of abuse to take place, I will not take the name of Jedi.

    Jade Light

    #148912
    Jedi_Phoenix
    Moderator
    Quote:
    A couple of comments:

    “Frankly – I haven’t seen many taking classes – but for those new to the community.  I seldom/never see the older/long-time Jedi taking and completing classes.  There really isn’t much of a model out there for lifelong learning and training.”

    I can only answer for myself – I was at Jedi Religion for a couple of years before it closed and was educated there, through the discussion boards, through conversations with other Jedi, classes, etc. I was eventually made a Knight, then a Jedi Scholar. This community does not recognize that work. They want you to go to their academies and gain credit there. I will admit that this has always been a sore spot to me because I have essentially done the work already and now I am being asked to do it again. I ask those who run these academies to ask themselves, “Would I want to go to another board and have to take classes over again when I already learned the material once before?” I don’t have all the time in the world because I am in school fulltime, work fulltime, and do volunteer work. I have recently thought about taking classes just for fun, to see if there is anything that I haven’t learned but I really think that it is ridiculous that a person who has been in the community for as long as I have has to take the same stuff over and over again because the present community members, some of whom have not been in it as long as I have, will not recognize what that person has already done. This is one of the reasons that I feel that there exist a kind of prejudice against the older Jedi as well as a huge gulf between the older Jedi and the newer Jedi.

    Jade, I think I can help answer this question or concern.  If you haven’t yet, the best thing to do is contact one of the administration of the site.  They are currently in the process of revamping the curriculum, so if you feel like maybe things you have learned from other sites should be mentioned here then it would be best to contact them.  But see the thing is, the site you joined and this site while both Jedi, hold different views.  Your site was a Jedi Religion, while we are Jedi Realist.  Now I am not really sure what the difference between the two are, but that could be one reason why you are being asked to take classes.  Another thing is that if you speak with the faculty, they may be able to work something out, assessing what courses you have previously taken, and maybe awarding credit for some of those things which parralell courses taught here.

    One other thing that I have a bit of a problem with though, and please take no offense to this, it is merely an observation is that if you are truly a Jedi Knight/Scholar, then you should be interested in learning new things.  Coming here and taking courses shouldn’t be an obstacle, but an extension of previous training.  I think you’d be amazed by the different perspectives you could learn.

    All in all, the one easiest way I guess I could address your concern is to keep an open mind, not saying you havent though =]

    #148913
    Anonymous

    Jedi Phoenix,

    There is very little difference between religion and realism except for how one holds it up. Does one see it as the only path to follow or can people hold to their main religion and follow this Jedi path as just that, a Jedi path. Currently, I follow it as a Jedi path, not a religion. I do read stuff from other sites.

    Much of what was studied at Jedi Religion was the code and the statements that are now going to be accumulated from the books and movies. Additionally, they were big on application. How did you apply it in the outside world. You studied the Force, how to feel it and use it. Much of what is being taught at the academies was covered at Jedi Religion. If it is only the name “religion” that has created the prejudice and the need to have those from the older boards to take the classes over again, that is a sad commentary about the community’s mindset.

    Jade Light

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