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Memnoich
All the hoopla about the Jedi church, hoods, and lawsuits has got me wondering how Jediism is viewed by it’s members, in order to get a better understanding of how it’s viewed by outsiders. To start lets get some definitions going, from Dictionary.com we have:
Quote:[size=10pt]phi·los·o·phy
–noun,plural-phies.
1.the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
2.any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
3.a system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
4.the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
5.a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
6.a philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.
[/size]Quote:[size=10pt]re·li·gion
–noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one’s vow.
[/size]Which category does Jediism fall into, just one or both, if so which does it associate with more? For Philosophy, Jedi Realism can be expressed by all 6 listings. As for Religion, Jedi realist can be included in all 8, though some would be a little bit of a stretch. If we look at Jedi Realism, then the easiest way to put it is all religions are based upon a Philosophy, but not all Philosophies are religions, if we take it that way, then the only way something is a religion is if we choose to make it one. So the question remains, is Jediism truly a religion, or is it just a Philosophy? To me it is a Philosophy, just like Buddhism, and Taoism, but wait, aren’t those religions, they are, but not to me. To me a religion involves worship, I don’t see a Jedi, Buddhist, or Taoist worship anything but that which is around them, life, existence, that which we all are. To me a religion involves a god/ess or multiple god/ess’s, but wait there’s the Force? While the Force is a presence, permeating throughout all of us it is not a god/ess, it is a conscious energy, and in my opinion, it gains the consciousness from us, it is a universal consciousness. Just like we have millions of brain cells to control our consciousness, so to does the Force use us as those millions of brain cells, not just us, but all living things, the trees, the animals, even aliens. We make up the consciousness of the Force.
Sorry for the ramble, back to the point, is Jediism a religion, or just a philosophy, to me, it is just a philosophy, what say you?Atticus
If I may narrow things a bit:
Quote:[size=10pt]phi·los·o·phy
–noun,plural-phies.
1.the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
. . .
5.a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs. . . .[/size]Quote:[size=10pt]re·li·gion
–noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. . . .[/size]To my way of thinking, the two applicable definitions of “philosophy” here sum up to much the same as the first (and usual) definition of “religion”. “[T]ruths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct” can easily be read to include the “cause, nature, and purpose of the universe”. And “system of principles for guidance in practical affairs” ~= “moral code governing the conduct of human affairs”, especially if you gloss over the potentially tricky use of the term “moral”. But from these definitions, I believe that “religion” has at least two necessary components that “philosophy” need not include, and that seem to preclude the idea that the Jedi path is a religion.
One major difference, as Memnoich pointed out, is worship, or “devotional and ritual observances”. Granted, individual Jedi might well bring an element of worship into their daily practice. But it’s not a necessary element by any means: I presume one can be a Jedi without “devotional and ritual observances” of any kind, and I know several Jedi already whose worship is reserved not for the Force but for a Judeo-Christian God.
Another major difference might lie in the contrast between “rational investigation” and “set of beliefs”; perhaps we can call this the element of faith. I can speak only for myself here, but no one’s demanded I take anything on faith (and I’d be mightily wary of anyone who did). I describe myself as an “open-minded skeptic”: I’m learning about what are to me unfamiliar areas of rather esoteric knowledge, even putting some things into practice, but I don’t start with any presumption that “this is truth” or “this is hogwash” unless I have some evidence for such a presumption. For example, I am not yet willing to state that I believe that astral projection is possible; I’ve read some research, but nothing I would consider convincing, and I haven’t tried it so I have no empirical evidence. On the other hand, I am coming to believe that regular practice of meditation creates remarkably beneficial mental and emotional effects not only because I’ve read good research that strongly indicates that it does, but because through meditation I am beginning to experience those beneficial effects myself. I think I’m engaging in “rational investigation”.
The second definition of “religion” above would seem to fit with the Jedi path, but I think it’s overbroad. Are the ISO standards a religion? They’re “a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons”. How about generally accepted accounting principles? Ditto. Or organized racism, organized crime, fraternity membership, comic collectors, the stock market, Twihards, and any code of professional ethics.
Just my $.02 and my vote for “philosophy”. Results not typical; your actual mileage may vary.
Jax
Very well said Atticus. I do believe that faith is a vital part of being a Jedi – but that faith is not in a being that will bail you out if things get tough. Simply believing in the Force takes faith. Even though we may experience something we call the Force, perceive things that we believe to be the Force, can we really know? At some point we will take things on faith. That said, I don’t believe the Jedi path is a religion. Ritual is an important part of religion and we don’t have that. Some people may create it, and practice it as a group, and I suppose they could then call it a religion, but that is not a required part of the Jedi path.
To me, it’s the difference between being Pagan and being Wiccan. Pagan is a philosophy (not dissimilar to the Jedi philosophy) while Wicca is typically a religion with rituals. Perhaps this is too simplistic, but I don’t like to make things unnecessarily complicated.
So yes, I firmly place myself in the philosophy camp.
Beral Khan
I would say that religions are dogma created from ideas of how to live which I define as a philosophy.
Meaning, Jedi Realism is a philosophy, it does not require the wearing of certain clothing the devotion to a higher power. But Jediism often does require certain clothing (the Hood), or devotion to a certain power (the Force).
the diference between, say, Taoist and Buddhism as a philosophy vs religion is when it goes from being a way of living to a way of explaining how the universe works and your place in it. This, to me, is why having the difference between Jedi Realist and Jediism is important.
I dont use Jedi Realism to explain how the world works and my place in it. I use it to define how I work in it. As to faith, I believe faith is used when proof isn’t available. I have had enough proof of the Force in action that I do not need to believe in it. I know exists as much as I do the wind. And I enjoy your definition of it Memnoich. Something created by all living things.
Kol Drake
From all my own site surfing, Jediism tends to want to be a religion but… it just does not meet the standards for it imo. Being a Jedi Realist is similar to Buddhism… a philosophy and guideline for a life path but not necessarily a religion per se.
Opie (one of the semi original online (and before there was an ‘online’) founders of many Jedi sites) gives a long and detailed comparison and tends to conclude as I do. But, in all fairness, one should make their own conclusions from reading his post.
Setanaoko
I’ve read that bit. Don’t like his version of the Jedi Way either (Pragmatic), I prefer Jedi Realism. But I do agree that Jediism is really a dud of a system. Why? Because you cannot sit here and tell me that you have your own religion and then tac on Jediism, then call it your religion. Maybe closer to your denomination. If you want to be of a religion like this-go to Unitarian Universalism (UU) (heck, they aren’t exactly a religion either).
I believe that the Jedi Path is a philosophy/way of life, because it does not have a set belief system-mostly a set lifestyle. But you can have a church, much like the UU, for Jedi to gather and grow spiritually with one another. We are not Unitarian Universalism because we live by a code, it’s a little more narrowed from the UU’s philosophy.
Quote:I’ve read that bit. Don’t like his version of the Jedi Way either (Pragmatic), I prefer Jedi Realism.I’m not sure I understand the distinction.
Touched on this under the thread titled “Jedi — Stoic, Zennish or Something Else?” on the Spirituality, Religion and Philosophy forum sub-set.
“Religions generally concern themselves with the afterlife; philosophies of life such as the Jedi (or Stoicism) concern themselves with daily life. They teach us what things in life are most valuable and how best to attain them.”
Think that still holds true when looking at the P v R argument.
Stryse
Shakes his head Perhaps the problem is in the notion that philosophies and religions are mutually exclusive things. They are not. All relgions have within them some form of philosophy, and in major relgions such as christianity, we find many philosophies related to what is billed as the same religion. A philosophy is a doctrine, and its from doctrines that religions grow.
The question I think we’re really trying to answer here is not whether the Jedi Path is a religion or a philosophy. Those aren’t distinct enough terms as any philosophy can be pursued religiously and no religion is devoid of a philosophy. The real question I think being asked is… is the Jedi Path a spiritual or a secular philosophy?
To that, I ask, what could possibly have you thinking it has to be one or the other?
Quote:“Religions generally concern themselves with the afterlife; philosophies of life such as the Jedi (or Stoicism) concern themselves with daily life. They teach us what things in life are most valuable and how best to attain them.”Think that still holds true when looking at the P v R argument.
If there was ever a philosophy out there that made you rethink how you live your life, or how you view your reality, than that philosophy provided you a genuine religious experience. No church, no priest, no god required… just you, and an open mind.
While I get what Kol is getting at, and the distinction between the Jedi Realists and other paths… The generalization still doesn’t sit well with me. (Newcomers, this is somethign many of us have talked about in great length across several threads, we have no consensus.. sorry.)
Your viewpoint, your paradigm, your world-view is fundamentally important. It is sacred. So even if its a very secular world-view, honor it with all the religious fury you can muster.
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