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September 11, 2008 at 2:34 pm #139211JaxKeymaster
“No one does anything inappropriate, given their model of the world.”
I just wanted to through this out as a thought for the weekend. There are many ways to say this, but sometimes this is the clearest.October 6, 2008 at 11:43 pm #149619Mindas ArranParticipantQuote:“No one does anything inappropriate, given their model of the world.”
Sometimes, a person’s model of the world is inappropriate.October 6, 2008 at 11:56 pm #149620JaxKeymaster
From your perspective. And they would view your world as inappropriate.October 7, 2008 at 10:05 am #149624Mindas ArranParticipant
A person can say that a building and a duck are the same thing in their perspective. That does not make it truth.
Or is it that everyone has the right to engage the world according to their own perspective, in which case I would be justified in violently asserting my perspective on everyone around me?
If Emrys comes home and I beat her until she nearly dies is that an appropriate world view? Is it a spiritual lesson that was crucial for her spiritual development?October 7, 2008 at 12:53 pm #149626CharlesParticipant
Perhaps severely imbalanced people don’t know what wrong is. I will grant you this, but polygraphs show what a lie is, they show what wrong action is also, some part of the human spirit knows what a TRUE wrong is. Perhaps they act in what they seen as “The only choice” but they most certainly do see it as a wrong action from time to time. I in fact can say I have done MANY things in my life that I knew where wrong when I did them. I did them because of short sightedness, stuborn arrogance, or determination to do them because of pride. That does not make those actions right but it does show now years latter that I might reclaim my honor by becoming a better person.October 7, 2008 at 1:28 pm #149627Jedi_PhoenixModeratorQuote:I did them because of short sightedness, stuborn arrogance, or determination to do them because of pride. That does not make those actions right but it does show now years latter that I might reclaim my honor by becoming a better person.
That’s what we are talking about. We are talking in retrospect, we aren’t talking about looking back, or later pondering how the action is wrong. We are saying that the choices you make in the present moment, are made based on what you see in the world. Most of the time it is subconcious.
And remember this “model of the world” is very general. So it can incorporate things like music, books, tv shows, movies, religions, the news…any of it. So based on these “models” you make the choices in that not only impact you but others around you. Even that action could serve as a “model” for another person. So based on what we see, is how we act, whether it is at a subconcious or concious level.October 7, 2008 at 4:41 pm #149628CharlesParticipant
Perhaps I should have fused the sentance before that one to the one just quoted. Let me make it clear, even DURING many of my worst actions I knew they where WRONG. There was no doubt as to their wrongness. I had my “justifications” for them but that made them no less wrong to me, and no less wrong period, if we can justify anything then morality is meaningless as well as pointless. In which case, its survival of the fitest again, do we REALY want our moral grounding to revert back to that?
As for Music, Books, TV, religion, news, I can’t see how any of those are “right” or “wrong” they are simply art. When one dances that dance is not right now wrong. It simply is. When one plays music that music is neither right nor wrong, it simply is the music they play. Choices of consequence bear the stamp of “Right” or “Wrong” action and only exist as such when there are alternatives available.
For example, if someone attacks you with a sledge hammer, you have a moment to decide your course of action. At that moment your morality gears kick in and you determine what is right, and what is wrong. For some of us such an attack would leave our opponent so open we could easily kill them and walk away. Yet when that morality gear kicks in we filter the next action through and determine via right and wrong what it is we will do. For most people at that moment even under dire circumstances if they have the power to stop their foe without killing them they will. This is a result of moral right action. Yet some people knowing it is wrong, and having the power to still do it, will still make that choice to kill.
However, take a person without the training, skill, and ability and put them in the same situation. They may choose to “Attack” not having the restraint to injur, wound, or incapacitate. In attacking they may kill, but they did not directly make a “Wrong” choice. They choose to do what they could based on a moral evaluation. If they had however attacked and it was sufficient to knock out their foe and then went and killed them it falls back into the moral gears having turned and the person deciding to do something they know is wrong.
Thats a poor example anyway as many things can, and likely will, be added to it to play around with it. So I shall use a simpler one. When you see a cat outside that is hungary you have many choices. Some of them are morally right, some of them are morally neutral, some are morally wrong. You could choose to feed the cat (a morally right choice), you could choose to do nothing (morally neutral) or you could choose to kill the cat (morally wrong). Likewise right and wrong have varrying levels. You could choose to kill the cat quickly (less morally wrong) or you could choose to tie its tain to a weight and stretch it an inch at a time for 3 days till it died. Obviously thats MORE morally wrong.
Now, I’m sure you could justify torturing the cat. Perhaps you did so, so that you would know more of torture and could understand the human condition better. Perhaps you’d create some wild idea that torturing the cat was “For its own good” but in the end you’d know it was wrong. Justification is a fine and dandy thing, but people use it WAY to much.October 7, 2008 at 4:44 pm #149629Silver TalonParticipant
Who here has never said anything to someone that they knew was wrong or inappropriate at the time but said it anyways? Just because you act on it knowing that it was wrong or inappropriate doesn’t make it less inappropriate.
Like Charles; I have in my time done things that I was fully aware were wrong before and even during the act of performing it. No matter the reasons or excuses I tried to make for those actions; I knew they were wrong.October 7, 2008 at 11:16 pm #149631CharlesParticipant
Thank you Talon, that brings me to my next point.
Its not so much that there is no such thing as wrong, its that even when we do a wrong, we ourselves are not “wrong” misguided definitly, choosing a poor choice no doubt, making a mistake you bet, but we have hope for ourselves. We can always improve, we can move past that wrong, and do BETTER.
That is after all, the path of the Jedi I’d say, to DO better. It’s a sad state of affairs when the gaurdians of peace and justice start making excuses for their mistakes. Instead, wisdom is to fess up. Heck, if your firendly sourcerer here can do it anyone can. I’m nothing special because I screwed up a few thousand times. However, I do learn from my mistakes, I make myself a better person. I learn from the wrongs I do, even when I do them intentionally, and I make an effort to not do them again no matter how tempted I am to go against my own knowledge of good and evil (notice I said knowledge, not belief).October 7, 2008 at 11:19 pm #149632JaxKeymaster
Ok, before this goes any farther, no one is saying we excuse or ignore bad behavior. That has been assumed in this thread and the other, and it’s simply not the case. However, people are coming to this from different perspectives, and thus things are getting misunderstood. I don’t have time to address this further at the moment, though, as I need to get more work done, but please don’t think that anyone is saying just do what you want, it’s ok. It is, from the soul perspective, but from the human perspective it is a different situation. And I’ll elaborate on that shortly.
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