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  • #178231
    Kol Drake
    Moderator

    Now, I am sure some readers of this thread were hoping for something along the lines of “Fifty Shades of Jedi Grey” — I direct those folks to the Jedi Sutra, sure to be a real item somewhere on the InterWebs.

    As I noted in a previous post, if you have grown up in Western culture, you have pretty much been bombarded from the time you were born with images and beliefs about LOVE. Most, if not all, of these images are predicated on the archaic paradigm of romantic love. Romantic love is not real love. Romantic love is, most simply put, infatuation… that and a healthy dose of raging hormones. It is based on the model of longing for someone that you can never completely have, and it is this longing that then becomes mistaken for real love. Being in a state of longing is a dramatic and fully alive experience. It creates butterflies in your belly and light-headedness in your mind. If not understood properly, the one in the longing position can easily believe that she or he is “in love.” And, in the long term, a relationship built on ‘longing (and lust)’ soon falls apart once the fantasy of the relationship becomes the reality of day-to-day interactions with a real, live person instead of the imagined ‘ideal’.

    Another bump in the road happens if the object of the longing, often called “the beloved”, does reciprocate, “the lover” often runs the other way. And so begins an all-too familiar game of chase with each participant alternating between the pursuer or distancer roles. The game is emotionally intense but ultimately unsatisfying. The bottom line is that real intimacy never occurs. It is dramatic but safe. It is temporarily painful but there is no long-term risk involved. And it certainly is NOT a healthy model on which to base a relationship or marriage!

    True love / Real love, on the other hand, requires that both people show up for each other in the same place at the same time. There is no game-playing, which creates more consistent stability in terms of the intensity of emotion; gone are the ecstatic highs and despairing lows that defined the unhealthy relationships of the past. As such, real love requires that both people risk their hearts to form a bond of true intimacy.

    How to define real love? It takes a list rather then a simple dictionary sentence —

    1. Real love is a conscious choice that often employs the rational part of our brains.
    Some couples have a “free ride” in the early stages of their relationship where they experience the intense feelings characterized by romantic love, but not everyone. And these feelings certainly are not necessary for real love to emerge as the relationship grows, as evidenced by the success rate of arranged marriages in other parts of the world. It is when the infatuation feelings diminish that the couple has to learn that love is a choice, not a feeling, as M. Scott Peck says in “The Road Less Traveled.

    2. Real love accepts that your partner is a fallible, imperfect human, just as you are.
    Unlike romantic life, which ascends the object of desire to the realm of a god, part of the jolt down to earth that many folk experience during their engagement is the realization that their partner is not perfect – that he is not as smart or witty or fun or good-looking as she/he thought the person she/he would marry would be. The romantic bubble of marrying Prince Charming/Princess Perfection is burst. Most folks focus on one missing area – sometimes to the point of obsession – and it is often an attribute that never bothered them before they were engaged. As time passes, the real fears are addressed, and love is redefined, the obsession mellows and they learn to accept and fully love their partner exactly as they are.

    3. Real love ebbs and flows in terms of interest, ease, and feelings.
    Put another way, in any healthy relationship there will be times when things effortlessly work, where the spark is alive and the couple is interested in one another and life. And there will be times of, for lack of a better word, boredom. Part of accepting real love is understanding that the boredom is normal and not a symptom that something is wrong with the relationship or that you do not love your partner enough.

    4. Real love is based on shared values and a solid friendship.
    You genuinely like each other (even though you might not like everything about your partner).

    5. Real love is action.
    Real love asks that you give even when you do not feel like giving (in a healthy way, not a codependent way). Real love is more concerned with how you can give to your partner than what you can get from him or her.

    6. Real love is a spiritual practice in that your focus is not how you can change your partner to alleviate your anger, pain, or annoyance but how you can assume full responsibility for those feelings and find healthy and constructive ways to attend to them.
    When you change in positive ways, the relationship will positively change as well. Real love is a lifelong practice. You are not expected to know how to give and receive real love at the onset of marriage, but are expected to work at it so that over the course of your life together your capacity to love grows.

    So the next time you watch a romantic comedy, read a steamy novel, or watch some hot and heavy ‘love’ scene and find yourself doubting if you love your wonderful, supportive, honest, loving partner enough, remember the above and realize how great your life is — to be sharing it with someone you really like being with.

    *****
    I was just thinking about some example of ‘real love’ that I might use — best one that comes to mind at the moment is from the animated movie, “Up”. The whole arc showing young Carl Fredricksen meeting his future bride, Elie; their life together in snapshots through old age and on into the main movie… classic stuff. Then again, I’m a sucker for a good animated movie…
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    >> Love Always <<

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    #178232
    Yoshio
    Moderator

    As for Carl and Elie in UP, I feel that this whole film is a perfect example of what real love is or should be. When I had seen it, I had been deeply touched by the turn the film take and the very deep message it sends, in my opinion.

    #178242
    Memnoich
    Participant

    I’m going to begin by apologizing or the length of this response. I’ve just now gotten to reading this post through, I’ll admit, was TL:DR, But I’ve gotten around to doing so now. There is much to respond to as Kol keeps adding more, lol. So my post will be compartmentalized, and separated by post’s to respond with my way of thinking. Do not be surprised if what I post shocks, and rubs you the wrong way, I have long been told I don’t conform to modern or even traditional thought very well, so be it. Be Advised, some NSFW verbage will be used as I feel it is needed to define what is being talked about in my opinion. Now without any further ado:
    [hr]

    Quote:
    Love is not about sex, but sex is certainly about love… or at least, it should be.

    I’ll start here, Sex is about Sex, it’s about procreation, look at the animals, it’s not about intimacy, it’s about continuing your blood line, continuing the species, anything more than that is the connotation they we have put upon it. From this, as humans, we have several different types of sex, this is one way we differ from animals. We have Making Love, this is the Intimate Sex, usually reserved for a longtime, if not lifetime partner. We also have Sex/F**King/Getting off, this is sex for the sake of sex, just for the endorphins, the high, the feeling that one gets from that release. F**King can also come from the lust or desire to see another naked, and have no further need or wish. Sex can also just be about filling a need, sometimes procreation, sometimes, and this is where most abused people fall into, feeling accepted or loved.

    However, through all of this, Sex is not about Love, and Love is not about Sex, it is about procreation, anything else is what we add to it.
    [hr]

    Quote:
    When you are in a relationship, and striving to create a powerful connection between you and your love, it is important to recognize what the relationship is about, and why you are together in the first place.

    A true relationship, is about making that intimate connection, however, again intimacy is not just for a sexual relationship. As Kol Googled, Intimacy is:

    Quote:
    close familiarity or friendship; closeness.

    By this, you don’t have to be having sex to be intimate, in fact, I’ve been very intimate with several of my friends, and that’s because we share things, we opened up to one another, and we got close, without having sex. Being truthful, sometimes to the point of pain and anger helps to bring on this intimacy, but it isn’t the only way.
    [hr]Now on to love, what is love? As Chip brought out:

    Quote:
    Aristotle says that the most pure form of friendship (love) is when the “friends” care about the welfare of the other without any instinct for reciprocation of any sort.

    Again, love is not Tied to the “One” you can love your friends, you can love your family, you can love animals, and you can love, ”The One”.
    As Kol goes into, there are many types of love, but the English language doesn’t distinguish.

    Quote:
    the Ancient Greeks identified four forms of love: kinship or familiarity (in Greek, storge), friendship (philia), sexual and/or romantic desire (eros), and self-emptying or divine love (agape).

    So let us make use of the ancients’ wisdom. Storge, that kind of love, which you give to your family simply because you are related, Philia, the love you share with a close friend, Agape, the love some show towards their God/s/ess, and then Eros the love given to one you desire, lust after, or given to one you are romantically involved with. Even here, the Greeks don’t differentiate between the love from lust, and that from a close, intimate relationship, to them it was the same. So what we have now-a-days is nothing new. Even back in ancient times, Love was misunderstood.

    This will Segway nicely to Relationships. I am currently in year 5 of my relationship, non-marriage with my girlfriend, My ex-wife and I were together for 3 years before we got married. My current girlfriend and I get guff all the time because we aren’t married, but that’s our choice. We have everything that a married couple has except legal rights and responsibilities. While marriage is an option and is on the table, we aren’t in any hurry, and why is that? We have a friend, who wasn’t even divorced when he got engaged to a girl he had been dating for less than a month. Too often we have seen the “honeymoon period” marriages fail. You know the “Honeymoon period” it’s the first stages of a relationship when Lust blinds you to all things. You never argue, you never fight, you never notice anything wrong, well you do you just inadvertently ignore it. We see this with celebrities all the time, the “Whirlwind” romances. They date for a few weeks, maybe a couple of months, they run off and get married because they feel everything is right, and then they are getting divorced a couple months later. It’s a lack of understanding “What is Love”.

    Then we get into the Twue, er…..True love, the “soulmates”, this again is misleading, because of media everyone believes that they’ve found their “soulmate”, but have no clue what to look for. Is it the one that accepts them no matter what, even though they can’t stand parts of their “soulmate”. Is it because they get along so great? Is it because they have similar interests, birthdays, hair color? What makes a Soulmate, and can there be more than one? Simply to me a “Soulmate” is a soul, or combination of energy, that vibrate in unison and complementary to your own vibration. As we progress through our paths, and multiple lives, our energy changes levels and vibrations. This can mean multiple “soulmates”, but this doesn’t mean a “Soulmate” is also “the one” Sometimes, it’s just a kindred spirit that you’ve worked with before, you are on the same level and have similar goals, but it doesn’t mean that they are “The One” just because you feel that connection, sometimes, it’s just not there.

    A relationship with another person, wither intimate, romantic, or friendly, should always be based on one simple thing, truth. Be true to yourself, be true to them, and speak the truth. All other things combine to make the type of relationship, compromise, lust, interests, compassion. However, Sex is not involved. Now you may want to hold on to sex for “The One” and there is nothing wrong with that. That is admirable, to be loyal to one you have not met, or to keep that loyalty for the one you are with. That is a personal decision, and nothing damning either way, until you bring religion into your relationship, however, that crowd control is a whole nother bombshell.
    [hr]Sex should not be a definition for a stable relationship, and you will never have one if that is what your relationship is based on. Pulling the trigger on that aspect could be harmful, it could be harmless, but that depends on the 2 people involved and their views on the whole myriad of details that we, as humans, have put as definers of a relationship. The issue with Sex today, is like love, there is no teaching of it other than from the media, you have trashy bodice ripper books teaching young women about “Romance”, you have movies showing the whirlwind that “Twue love conquers all”, and you have the porn industry showing everyone what “Sex” should be like. There is no reality anymore, because reality is boring, Reality is going to work and coming home to work more, romance is those 5 secs you get to give your partner a kiss, or to send a smile, or grasp hands, reality is being tired, being stressed, feeling frumpy, feeling cooped up, arguing, disagreeing. Love is, Despite ALL of that, as Kol said, accepting who they are for what they are, not in spite of, and wanting to be nowhere else but with that person.
    [hr]In the end, Kol Sums up True love, not the longing, not the infatuation, not the lust, but the acceptance, I think this can be applied towards more things. If this is the case, then why is “True love” only between two romantically involved people, why can you not have love for more than one person? Why can you not love all things?

    Quote:

    1. Real love is a conscious choice that often employs the rational part of our brains.
    2. Real love accepts that your partner is a fallible, imperfect human, just as you are.
    3. Real love ebbs and flows in terms of interest, ease, and feelings.
    4. Real love is based on shared values and a solid friendship.
    5. Real love is action.
    6. Real love is a spiritual practice in that your focus is not how you can change your partner to alleviate your anger, pain, or annoyance but how you can assume full responsibility for those feelings and find healthy and constructive ways to attend to them.

    In the Celestine Prophecy, they talk about Love being the ultimate energy, sending that “Love” out into the world, and “loving” that which is around you, offering no judgment, just acceptance of what you see, and loving it for what it is. Why can you accept a plant, an animal, a planet, for what it is, but not another, or more than one human being? This I think is the ultimate goal, and one I think Jax has been working on for herself, accepting others without judgment, from there it’s just learning to love them for being who they are.

    However, I do need to say this, Just because you love someone for who they are, that doesn’t always mean you need to keep them in your life. Some people need to do their own growth and acceptance before they stop being a harmful influence in another’s life.

    #178488
    Kol Drake
    Moderator

    I agree with most of Memnoich’s re-cap and expansion of my original post though there is one section that just tweaked me for some reason so…

    and, while trying to post my response… either the Internet or some invisible ‘sex police’ protocol must be screaming because it will not let me post my response in ‘this spot’… so I’ll have to do it as an attachment I suppose.

    Still, just to tweak ‘the System’ —

    >> Do It Like They Do on the Discovery Channel << (( though does the Discovery Channel even do animal shows any more? Seems like it’s all ‘panning for gold’ or moonshiners on the run or surviving in the wilderness buck necked… ))

    #178533
    Memnoich
    Participant

    Wow, you are right, something doesn’t like your wording, I can get about 2-3 paragraphs quoted then it stops showing it, odd.
    [hr]Touché, I will agree with you on that as well Kol. Yes animals do “it” for more then procreation, Heck, I’ve watched my dogs do it for dominance( female to male), boredom, and other things. So yes, I over-simplified when I said that we should think about it like the animals. But my point remains, Sex for any other reason is what we put into it. Do I agree or disagree with someone else’s choice’s?…..
    When we were cavemen, procreation was important, pass on the genes, mate, increase population, because numbers meant survival, numbers meant our species would make it. Then came religion. In walked men, like me, not the strongest, who didn’t like our women being taken by the strongest, so morals and religious law was created, to cut down on sex just for the sake of sex, Marriage became a form of population control.
    Morally, what is right? well I can’t say, as long as everyone consents, then who’s to complain. Do I believe in the sanctity of marriage, no, I believe in the sanctity of choice. Any more, marriage is a piece of paper granting legal rights. I feel more “Married” to my Girlfriend of 4 years then I ever did to my wife, but that is because of the bond we have created, not any piece of paper that needs signed.
    When it comes down to it, I will respect your choice, no matter what it is, except cheating, but that is more about the lying then about the sex.
    Basically I fall back on the “Do as you will as it harm none” saying when it comes to this. I won’t fault you if you see sex as more or less, those are personal choices, but I find out about you cheating, don’t ask me to hide it.

    Ok, think I started to ramble there.

    #178540
    Kol Drake
    Moderator
    two-thumbs-up.jpg

    (( and I apologize to any world wide groups’ culture that sees a ‘thumbs up’ as anything other then a sign for ‘A-OK’.

    Fair enough.

    And being with someone ‘without a certificate’ still works — heck, Kurt Russell has been with Goldie Hawn for nearly 30; had a kid or two together and still are happy with no paperwork. It is as you say, the paperwork is more for rules and regulations and making certain the significant other has ‘rights’ under the laws… not so much a ‘paste’ to make certain a union is happy or fulfilling.

    Ya, when me and Ogg hang out in the old cave, we just have to remember — just run faster then the other guy so the T-Rex catches them first.
    (( no power plays necessary when you have a pet Rex. :p ))

    And, yes, I’ll go with your stance… cheating = bad.

    And, from a certain point of view, sex = sex
    BUT, we also agree to dis-agee and that’s good too…

    … though I suggest we both are in agreement that — when done with the proper attitude, it can be kind of fun.
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    #178688
    Kol Drake
    Moderator
    Quote:
    “According to greek mythology, humans were originally created with 4 arms, 4 legs and a head with two faces. Fearing their power, zeus split them into two separate parts, condemning them to spend their lives in search of their other halves.”
    – Plato

    The above is the ‘short version’ of the story Plato had Aristophanes telling in The Symposium. Many refer to this as one of the earliest tellings of what ‘soul mates’ are. And truth be told, it is really a stupid system…

    Math-a-magic time.
    There are more than seven billion (Big B billion) people on this planet. Say you do a lot of traveling, and manage to meet a million of those people in your lifetime. That gives you a rather low 1 in 7 thousand chance of finding ‘THE ONE.’ ouch

    Then again, how do so many find “THEIR ONE” and continue to stay happy?
    imo, it is when we learn to set aside the ‘dream’ and embrace another human being who is as flawed and imperfect as our self.

    Figure, most folks are SO obsessed with twue wuvv… er, true love, that dreamed for ‘perfect relationship.’ (( whatever the heck THAT is )) They imagine that one elusive person who fits their quirks and foibles and desires like a puzzle piece… that perfect ‘fit’. And, of course, people being people — when a potential mate falls short of that perfection — bingo, they reject them. Too old, too young, too hairy, too slow, too fast, too fat, too thin, too smart, too dumb, too clingy, too aloof, too serious… hate the shows I like; hate chocolate (( a crime of the highest rank!!! )); voted for ‘the other guy’; left the toilet seat up; secures the toilet paper the wrong side ‘up’ (or down). And the list could go on and on. A million excuses for rejection, a million ways to find others un-attractive. The skill at seeing ugliness in others is matched only by our ability to see it in the mirror, to punish our self for every imagined flaw.

    heh… cross cultural reference…
    In one episode of Doctor WHO, the Doctor meets a man who said he wasn’t important. The Doctor replied, “I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t important before.”

    We are all unique. We are all important. We are all ‘worth knowing’.

    The more we narrow the definition of beauty (or perfection), the more beauty we shut out of our lives.

    Don’t just look. SEE those around you. And see without judging. (( the hard part ! )) Just as one of the lessons at the IJRS, we can teach ourself to truly see — and appreciate, without judgment… and it opens our eyes to whole vistas once ignored.
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    #178690
    Jax
    Keymaster

    Most people actually aren’t destined to find ‘the one’. Granted, I’m in one of those relationships which was pre-destined before we came into this physical reality. But it still required us making choices for this relationship. There was no guarantee, and we could still choose to go our separate ways.

    I believe the idea that there’s one person out there for everyone is incredibly damaging. For most people, they made no agreements before incarnation. If they get married, it’s based on choices made in their life. If they don’t, they don’t. Having an agreement before hand really doesn’t change a lot. Every relationship takes choosing, continuously, throughout the relationship.

    Very good information Kol. I hope people take it to heart.

    #178698
    Yoshio
    Moderator

    I feel what goes along with this well is, I guess it should be, a Chinese proverb I once read. Goes something like: “Face/encounter everyone as you would be a guest in their house.” My understanding of this is to stay open, polite and friendly and as you are a guest it is not on you to “force” anything onto the other person as it is their “house”.

    Another thing I read, I guess it had been in a survey they made in Europe which dealt with in which country do live the most happiest couples and it seemed to be that they do live either in Spain or Italy but not because of the imagined prejudice of the great “Latino lover” but because of that both, according to the survey, keep constantly working on their relationship. In my take it is to not see anything as granted and to give your best every day.
    So yes, choices, every day, every time, we can choose for the better or for the worse but it is our choice how we want to approach something. Because of that in the end we are the only ones who to blame to if there should be something to feel sorry about or complain about. At least I do feel this way.

    #178750
    Kol Drake
    Moderator
    Pi-Day-Banner.jpg
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    mmmmm pi !!! :)
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