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July 4, 2007 at 11:50 pm #138537StreenParticipantQuote:“Sith? Jedi?” she said. “Are these the only choices? Dark or light, good or evil? Is there no more to the Force than this? What is the screen on which light and dark cast their shapes and shadows? Where is the ground on which stands good and evil?” –Vergere (Traitor)July 5, 2007 at 2:53 am #144675JaxKeymaster
My new teacher is often reminding me that there is no battle between light and dark. Dealing with these dualities means dealing with an illusion. You don’t defeat darkness, but shed light upon it. When you shine light upon darkness you can see it for what it is.
When we were children, most of us were afraid of the shapes in the dark. Clothes in the closet turned into monsters when the lights were off. Yet all it took was light to show us again that there were no monsters in the closet.
When you shine a light onto a dark person, you see them for who they are. You see their nature. When you know someone’s nature, they can’t surprise you because they act in accordance with their nature. And, if necessary, we can intercept the ‘bad’ actions and neutralize them.
Looking inward, we all have a ‘dark side’ of some type. It isn’t always something horrible, just something we’re afraid to look at. So this part of us lives in darkness within us. Yet, as soon as we start to look at those dark places and shine lights on them, we can understand them and reintegrate them into the whole. Then there ceases to be darkness within.
This is something I’m still learning, but hopefully that made some sense.July 5, 2007 at 4:29 pm #144685Anonymous
You know what I like? This is way off-topic by the way… I like how a lot of the most interesting characters in the expanded Star Wars are older women!
At 44 that is somewhat comforting…LOL
Jax – and you know what else is very comforting? You have a new mentor and consider yourself a student even while teaching. That is…well…it makes me feel I am in the right place.
Light and Dark. So few things are very light or very dark…thank goodness?
-Asta SophiJuly 17, 2007 at 9:00 pm #144918Kol DrakeModerator
This tends to harken ‘back’ to the good old yin-yang symbol. They are not separate but make up ‘the whole’. Without Light; there *is* no Darkness. Without the Dark, how can one experience the Light?
As with the yin-yang — it tries to show this dynamic in the swirling teardrops that blend in and out of each other.
And… tries to show that there is no Pure Light or Dark by having those neat dollops of contrast in the heart of each other.October 11, 2007 at 5:22 am #146565SpenserfParticipant
I agree, the duality is an illusion, or at least what we would consider one. But to me this simply means unity. Jax you speak of almost a dominance of light, or rather that darkness is only darkness because it lacks light. Perhaps, though, light is as much the absence of darkness as darkness is the absence of light. ‘that’s duality’, I disagree. The point is that its all one and the same. Dark is a form of light and light is a form of dark and our interpretation of it, our concept of what makes light or what makes dark, these are the illusions.
An example: When we draw we tend to use a light media (paper) and a dark media (pencil), this is a tradition and is the easiest for our mind to grasp. We naturally consider white the absence of mass. In that, light is absence. However, when you ask someone what ‘nothing’ looks like, what absence really is, we think in terms of science and technicality which on the surface tells us that ‘darkness’ is closer to absence of all things. Obviously there is a contradiction. The best part is that they are both wrong since they are limited by our human understanding of the universe and the laws. ie, this pencil is a mass and it is dark therefore darkness=mass.
It continually amazes me how similar conclusions about the universe can be drawn through objective thought about art or self exploration as one can find in the most complex science. With searching, I believe both are telling us the fallacy of our concepts of light and dark. Jax, I don’t think that shedding light will bring you any closer to someone’s true self than leaving them in the dark so to speak. The keyboard ‘m looking at right now is white… that is, the physical light is telling me that… but is it really white?
I hope this is more that a ramble to ya’ll, its been awhile since I’ve posted on any forums so I’m alittle rusty on my clarity of thought haha.
peaceOctober 15, 2007 at 3:19 pm #146588seeker125Participant
To me duality is not an illusion but very real. The force encorporates all thing, it binds all things together, the force is duality, dark and light and every shade of grey in between. I seek the light but am doubtful that I shall ever achieve complete enlightenment in this lifetime. To those who are confident that they will, I say work hard to travel to the light but beware of arrogance, for that is of the dark side. :yodaOctober 15, 2007 at 3:27 pm #146589AslynParticipant
Ah, you see, the very notion you put forward contradicts duality. In a duality, there are but two elements. With shades of grey, a duality no longer becomes apparent. As you say, the Force encompasses everything, and cannot therefore be limited to but two aspects that are attributed to it in a metaphysical/pseudospiritual approach.October 15, 2007 at 7:59 pm #146590SpenserfParticipant
exactly, and this is where the conflict of ‘sides’ comes in. Because if you are to truly believe that the force is of all things, then why would you have any concept of right and wrong, good and evil, or rather why would you choose one side over the other? Why would there be any sides, in reality, unless you admit that you are consciously creating them or participating in the collective creation of them.October 29, 2007 at 2:24 am #146739Brandel ValicoParticipant
Hmmm… Not sure if I am supposed to post here or not. As I am not an official member of this group.
But I ran across this conversation and wanted to share my view on it. If my posting here violates some policy I missed. I trust the staff will delete this and I apologize for doing so.
Now as to light and dark.
For myself I used a combined duality slash upside down pyramidal cone image in my mind to give a very basic concept image to a very large concept.
So keep that in mind as I try and sum it up while being as brief as I can.
Starting with each person as the tip of the cone the bottom or “smallest” point I’m going to discuss. (Though there are smaller ones.) If you view yourself as being a spinning (Think washing machine spin) Yin-Yang. With having your darker tendencies and desires and wants and needs. All mixed in and sloshing around with your lighter ones of hopes and dreams and the capacity to do good and help others without thought of yourself first. Then you can see how the yin-yang symbol can be used for an individual basis. It’s a mistake to view it as to separate opposing sides. It’s a very western concept. I’d say a misunderstanding to do so. It’s always been meant to show how those “sides” are moving within us at all times. How good actions can result in bad outcomes and vise versa. Thats the seeds of each exist within the other. But that both are needed to see the whole. To form a complete concept. It’s a very basic image that means a great deal more. Now like the yin-yang we have ourselves.
The “smallest” point in the Force if you will. Within us we have the potential for both Selfish and Selfless acts. (What I consider dark and light) Many of us like to think that we are good people. Some even think it while committing the most selfish acts. The reality is we are simply energy both positive and negative forces pulling and interacting with others who also are like us. We can influence others with our actions. Guide them and lead them both for selfless reasons or for selfish ones.
In doing so we move beyond simply the energy within ourselves. To the next area where our energy interacts with the personal energy of all other living things. It’s the level known as the Living Force in the newer Jedi lingo. Some think at this point that the “duality” of the Force is no longer there half way up the spinning cone though we must remember that the smallest point is still part of the cone and hasn’t stopped being there just because we are looking at it from a higher point.
Like (I believe they are called pointillism paintings) a painting full of dots. When we stand very closely we can see all the individual dots each a separate and very unique made up of very different blends of colors to form a specific point in the field of the painting. But as we step back we begin to see how all those dots blend with each other each working with those around them to cause us to see shapes and images we don’t notice before.
The living Force is the same. Each living point of energy interacts with the others it comes in contact with. Influencing them or being influenced by them to be both selfless or selfish this interaction causes the same washing machine spinning effect at this level. Of certain groups of points forming together like in the painting to create dark patches on the field of energy. While there may be individual points of “light” within those darker hues. Mixed all around even. That section of the Force still has a darker hue to it then other sections that are lighter. even thought it may also have “dark” points within it also. As such the concept of duality still applies here.
As we move further up the cone. to what most consider the Universal Force. We begin to see how all the other sources of energy interact with everything else below it in the cone right down to the bottom point itself. Now since this level which is honestly far enough in scope from the individual that many think it’s safe to ignore the Light and dark concepts. (I thought so my self at one time) But doing so is simply that ignoring what is there. Just because we are looking at a vast forest (to use a visual concept) doesn’t mean the trees aren’t still there or the individual leaves that make up there foliage. The universal Force includes all things. Gravity, Mass, Energy, Planets, Stars, etc… etc… Now using the concept of the painting again. We are back far enough to see the entire painting so far back we no longer really see the individual dots and only consider the individual shapes as part of the whole image. In doing so we tend to forget that each point is what makes the whole. That their interactions are what allow us to see the whole painting. Now lets consider that the painting isn’t a static image but an ever changing universe (Itself but a small dot in and even larger thing. But like the smaller things not really what I’m looking to get into right now) If those dots can move around with the other dots forming new images and shapes within the painting. Or even more fun to consider but that each dot itself can change color and shade of color. All while moving around and influencing other dots to also change shade and color as they interact. At times they may seem to become static causing whole sections of the image to slant one way or the other. At times there may be no discernible sections at all.
In doing so you may begin to get how even the universal Force still contains the concept of “duality” within it.
Are they real actual divisions? Nope not at all.
Do the three levels actually exist? Nope not at all.
In the end it’s just one huge swirling ever changing and flowing collection of energy without limit or end. But the concepts are there to help people understand the whole by focusing on the smaller details. To teach them how to grasp the larger concepts.
Now above I asked to questions and answered both with the same answer. Those answers are based upon my understanding of the Force. But in getting to that point. I have seen it a mirid different ways. Slowly my view has expanded and grown (Or at least I like to think it has) To the point that I no longer view the Force as a separate thing from myself or anyone or anything else. As such I have learned that while at one time those answers would have been right in my mind. But that they really aren’t. Anymore so then the concepts of duality or the three tier system are simply stepping stones, guides to help you understand a larger images. You slowly begin to realize that the image itself is so vast and huge that you can never really see it all or understand it all. That what you can see is simply one small section of a vast whole without edge or limit that has no beginning or end. That such concepts are themselves simply things we use to help us pretend to understand things we don’t.
When you reach this point. When you realize this one simple thing. It all seems to click and you accept how all the mirid concepts and ways of life and beliefs and habits all are simply our small way to help us understand the Force. That you let go and accept your place in it. That you become one with it. Understanding that even this concept you have now is both very true and yet a lie. That the concepts from before of Light and Dark Personal Force Living Force and Universal Force really make sense and exist for those who believe in them and you realize that their beliefs in those concepts effect their energy which makes up the ebb and flow of the Force as it interacts with and effects the ebb and flow of other peoples energy. That you accept the concepts are very real indeed. That if enough people believe and accept a concept to be true they can cause vast changes and ripples in the Force causing whole sections of the image to shift this way and that. Effecting more then we may even know. Accepting this means we shouldn’t just dismiss them as not being real. But instead accept that for the people who believe in them they are very real indeed. Just as Gods and Devils are real for those who believe in them. That vast sections of the Force hold those beliefs to be true. And as such Manifest those beliefs on the rest of the Force. As it interacts with those sections.
So to sum it up. I see such things as actually existing for those who think they do. As such I accept they exist. Though I keep in mind that their existence is not a real one anymore then my own is. That they are not separate or unique from the Force. But simply a small section of it. Which isn’t really even a section in and of itself.
Either way this post has been far to long winded.October 29, 2007 at 2:37 am #146740JaxKeymaster
Brandel, you’re always welcome to post here, as is anyone else. There’s no membership required to post in the forums, as they are separate from the academy while still linked to it.
I’m sure you’ll give people plenty to think about.
I completely agree with the last paragraph, and it’s important that it’s said clearly like you said (I’m sure I garbled it in past posts). It’s true for people who feel it’s true. I don’t believe in demons, haven’t experienced them, and thus they aren’t real for me. What other people experience as demons I would experience differently because they don’t exist for me. I consider them something different, perhaps simply because people have attributed far too much to things called demons. But who knows. If I don’t have personal experience with them, then it really doesn’t matter much to me anyway.
And I guess that’s my take on this whole thing. Does it really matter if there is a pure evil in the universe? If we knew that there either was or wasn’t, would that change how we lived our lives? I doubt it. Based on my many experiences conversing with the spirits that are always around us, humans always get something wrong when they think they’ve explained something anyway, so it really doesn’t matter.
I used to spend a lot of time wondering about these things. But when you hear that we have it part right and part wrong often enough, you realize it doesn’t matter. So instead I shift my focus to living my life as best I can. That is something that does make a difference to me and the people around me.
So thank you, Brandel, for another perspective. I’m sure you’ll have people scratching their brains on this and hopefully responding with something also interesting.
Chime in any time!
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