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  • #148971
    matt191
    Participant
    Quote:
    Assuming the philosophy is right to begin with.  Where did this fiction come from?  Where did the author get their ideas from?  I guess I’d rather go to the source when possible ;-)

    well i just signed up for the forums just to make an attempt to answer this question, i came upon them a day or two ago…whatever i say is not proven fact, just things i have collected from various sources, one person i met in a forum talking about the spiritual parts of life that many people dont konw about/can not be proven, she beleives firmly she is a jedi, if you know anything about astral projection, she claims to project and go to a jedi temple to learn, well she has told me that george lucas had a near death experience when he had a car accident, a NDE is where you leave your body when it is fataly wounded, because it prepares for death and actually thinks you died, but he actually recovered, but she told me that when he recovered as soon as he was able, he started writing star wars, i dont know the legitimacy of all of this, but if it is true then star wars is based off of things he saw in the astral realm, or werever he was…or it could have all been thoughts in his head, as the astral world is controlled by thoughts, and can be manipulated on accident due to a persons thoughts…but who really knows?

    just a small bit of so far unproven information

    #148973
    Anonymous
    I am not posting with emotion, not allowing my past to influence my posting, and not taking things personally.

    Memnioch,

    In regards to this statement:

    Quote:
    These are questions that can have many answers, the biggest one was MAce, that was very close to a Sith perspective, the ends justify the means, but at the same time, was he right. Just like in the military, you have to make a choice about what is to much. Had Mace just arrested Palpatine, would it have been enough, or would it have just been a stop gap. Had mace killed him, would it have accomplished the same goal, yes, the Sith would have been done, for a time, but the reputation of the Jedi would have been scarred and possibly destroyed. In the end, as a Jedi, the decision of force is up to you.

    I see Mace as being highly in touch with the Force and even a greater Jedi than many may think. If killing one person saves the lives of billions, is it worth it? Many interpret what Mace did as being wrong because it goes against what a Jedi is perceived to be like – in specific, doing the least amount of harm to get the job done. In the case of killing Palpatine, killing him was the least amount of harm. Mace knew that if he put Palpatine in prison, he would escape, have those who did not believe he was a Sith Master plead for his release, or do something else in order to facilitate chaos and havoc. With that knowledge, which makes me think that Mace had a very acute connection with the Force, Mace made, in my eyes, the correct decision.

    If you question Mace’s actions in regards to Palpatine, then you must question Luke’s actions in regards to Vader as well. You will also have to question Obi Wan’s and Yoda’s statements to Luke that he must kill Vader.

    The fact that many in this community fail to believe that Mace’s actions of wanting to kill Palpatine were Force driven and correct makes me realize that many do not understand the idea of justice. “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum. (Let justice be done, though the heavens fall.)” To me, Jedi should uphold justice at all cost. Justice is what protects the innocent from those who are criminals and intend to do harm. The concept of the ends justifying the means applies when it comes to justice to some degree. Would you kill one person in order to protect millions? Yes, the ends justify the means. If it took a thousand deaths to kill that one person, would you do it? No. Because then you are killing innocents, the very one’s that you are sworn to protect. The end does not justify the means. Thus, a Jedi must weigh what they are about to do and I believe that Mace had it right. The killing of Palpatine may not have prevented an uprising but it certainly would have eliminated a Sith Master who could have, and did, facilitate more chaos and butality.

    In regards to the quote, Palpatine had already reeked havoc in the universe. That havoc lead to the death of many innocent lives. Justice demands that he pay the price for his actions. “Let justice be done, though the heavens fall” means that even if some chaos and havoc occurred due to the death of Palpatine, even if the Jedi were seen in a different, and negative, light, justice must be served. Justice, the one thing that Jedi should uphold at all costs, in this case, would be the death of Palpatine.

    Jade Light

    #150436
    Kol Drake
    Moderator

    Long time since I read this and some time since I pondered on the thought of ‘how a Jedi should act/respond to violence.’

    A quote from an old old television show came to mind.  “Kung Fu” (1972-1975).  One of the many flashbacks used to depict how the ‘hero’, Kwai Chang Caine, was being taught by his blind Master – Master Po and others.  In this case, Caine specifically asked how a Shaolin Monk should respond to an attack and the response from the martial arts instructor Master Kan seems very appropriate for “the Jedi Way” also.

    Master Kan — “Avoid, rather than check (stop block). Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim.  Maim, rather than kill.  For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced.”

    Pretty much do the amount deemed necessary rather then ‘all or nothing’ in any given situation.

    #150440
    Jax
    Keymaster

    You always have very handy examples Kol.  Glad to see you again!

    I may have grown up in American Karate, which isn’t as traditional, but we were taught that you only do what is necessary in self defense to get away, never more.  We needed to have self control.  That’s always stuck with me.  In order to have that self control we need to have awareness of our emotions in every situation so our actions don’t become a mindless reaction to them. 

    Actually, I just read this awesome book (you probably read it Kol) called Blink, which talks about the decisions we make in the first seconds of a situation, including stressful life or death situations.  Often we aren’t exposed to these situations and don’t learn to control our breathing and heart rate, so they both skyrocket.  This triggers a response by the body which basically turns off all normal thought processes and we can react completely wrong.  This is often what happens in police shootings where the cops felt very threatened and reacted with more force than necessary.  It’s rather eye opening. 

    The key to overcome this is training.  Exposing yourself to stressful situations, but in a safe environment through training helps your body maintain more calm during a real situation allowing you to make clearer decisions.  Hopefully none of us will be in a physical confrontation, but we still need to prepare for a multitude of different scenarios.  The more we train for a variety of things, the more we can be calm and “Jedi like” in a situation. 

    #150446
    Magdelene Nashira
    Participant
    Quote:
    This came up during a discussion regarding what form(s) of martial arts ‘works best’…
    (Health & Fitness)

    I do not believe… just because we do not ‘wish’ to fight that one must be placed in pure-ly defensive mode.  Kol Drake

    Why not? Are we not to be helping everyone, and not just those we care for. If you can not perceive a conflict long before the physical act then regardless of what “mode” you’re in, you will lose. The philosophy of the Jedi is cause as little to no damage to everyone as possible, regardless of the situation. If we lose sight of this fact we become nothing more than a bunch of thugs or vigilantes bent on physically subduing our opponents.   Ares1982

    Perhaps I am reading / filtering this incorrectly.

    The Jedi Code states —

    There is no emotion; there is peace.
    There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
    There is no passion; there is serenity.
    There is no death; there is the Force.

    During the restructuring of the Jedi Order by Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker a new code was established for easier interpretation for the newer generation of Jedi.   The code retained the same core beliefs as the millennia old code, rewritten for better understanding.

    Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
    Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
    Jedi respect all life, in any form.
    Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
    Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

    In either statement of ‘belief’ — I do not see where it says ‘to do no (or as little) damage as possible to an attacker if a Jedi is forced ‘to take action’ (physical confrontation — once all other forms of resolving the issue have failed).

    What is the established ‘stance’ concerning how non-aggressive or passive the Jedi way ‘must be’?

    I can see someone wanting to be ‘as monk-like’ as possible — total meditation; avoidance of all contact with disruptive forces.  But that almost gets into a form of hiding from the day-to-day actualities of Life… living among non-Jedi.   I suppose a ‘true’ pacificist would ‘turn both cheeks’ — and still their butt beat and then forgive and love their attacker…. but I don’t see the Jedi as being THAT passive.

    As with the Martial Arts, we are supposed to train our body ‘just in case’ — hoping we can stop the ‘situation’ long before physical force becomes necessary.    Even in the best of situations, there comes a time when force is the last action… is it a no-no for a Jedi to kick a** or should we beam Force-like compassion at the ‘other’ while they rob, beat, destroy others and the Jedi?

    I think my mental mousetraps have popped.. I can’t say or see a Jedi like comment to cover all this.   :P

    Just wanted to quote the original question as I’m kind of backtracking here from where the conversation left off.  But in response to the original question I was thinking that perhaps a good example, and maybe this is the place where the idea originated, is in the story “Revenge of the Sith” when Anakin is in the lightsaber fight with Dooku he cuts his hands off with the lightsabers and then has him in custody by placing the lightsabers around his head.  Up to that point he does not cross the line of the Jedi code.  But when he decides to cut Dooku’s head off because the Chancellor suggests it and because he is harboring inner anger and desire to get even with Dooku, at that point Anakin crosses the line.

    In looking at that, I don’t believe a Jedi should be prohibited from taking martial arts and so forth, but I think they need to be more disciplined in their behavior than they are in the martial arts.  They need to develop an understanding of how to contain their emotions before they empower themselves to the extent of having the ability to take a life so that they can be assured that their decisions will not be made in anger or resentment.  Ask any military person or police officer and they can probably tell you that it is much more difficult to do than it is to say.  The adrenaline produced in fighting naturally brings up people’s anger and fear responses, so one has to try to consciously control their actions acting against their body’s own natural defense mechanism.  Personally, I don’t think it can be done perfectly.  Though I don’t know I would be the expert in this regard.

    Another point I want to make is that I don’t think all Jedi should be required to be martial arts or warrior type people.  In our society there are ways to be strong and ways to defend others that have nothing to do with the physical.  A good public defender could be thought of loosely as a Jedi Knight.  Also there are medical healing Jedi.  Those who defend others from disease and so forth.  So there’s more than one way to be strong and defend.

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