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December 16, 2007 at 1:32 am #147319SpenserfParticipant
very true. But just because these issues exist doesn’t mean that everyone is racist or sexist. The problem comes when simple comments that aren’t at all meant to be sexist are taken out of context. There are a lot of factors in this debate and lots of angles, but I think there is an awareness that is equally as important as the awareness you speak of and that’s being aware that not everyone nor everything is sexism, racism, or social conditioning. Part of living in liberal california is developing a sixth sense about what you say. Sure that can be a good thing, you don’t want to be a dick… nor do you want to get shot… but at the same time is it fair that people can’t say what they mean, or even make a simple comment whether its true or not without being chewed out for being stupid and sexist? No, thats really not fair and starts to go the other direction. Honestly jax I totally agree with you, but there’s a limit. And I think when things get taken out of context when we all know quite well that kol drake isn’t sexist, suddenly a problem is formed. This comes from my anger of how Im treated as a white male. Go ahead, be racist and sexist and say I’m not allowed to be angry about my position cause I’m privileged. But dude if I say “I don’t watch sex and the city but women do” I’m sexist but if I were a woman saying “I love sex in the city and so do my girlfriends” I’m just another person. This is where I’ve seen awareness turn into hyper awareness thinking that everyone is sexist.December 16, 2007 at 3:59 am #147320Kol DrakeModerator
People People !!!
It was a goofy video clip telling us we should use CFl bulbs!
Maybe my title was precog… ’cause I NEVER intended this to become a war of the genders — or gender mindsets.
*** mind wanders to how to update his resume from simple ‘ass’ to ‘sexist ass’ ***
While Jax and Spenserf argue some interesting points, both are trying hard to NOT assume I am a sexist (or an ass). Relax, both of you. At times, I can be a real ass. Sometimes I can be seen as sexist…. I have even been caught opening doors for BOTH sexes…. so, relax.
Ya, somewhere in the rattle trap of my mind, I probably did ‘assume’ the females of the forum would be the more inclined to have seen an episode or two of Sex and the City. Not sure if that is male sexist ass, moronic assumption –or– just plain moronic, viewer demographic assumption.
In either case, I definitely did not mean for this to get all ‘other dimensional’ about gender views, roles, assuming, and ….. almost into this topics third page!
At times, I grumble about ‘adults’ reading a shitload of issues when someone (or group) gets all foaming at the mouth about how some children’s bedtime story is REALLY all about sex and urges and thinly veiled S.E.X. A kid does not ‘think’ that way until some frothing at the mouth adult starts *teaching* them to see things that way.
In a similar manner, I do pine for those simpler times when I was growing up and people were not so worried about being PC that any word, phrase, or term (implied or assumed) is a reason to get all ‘in your face’ to defend or attack on a given viewpoint. *sighs* It is another ‘problem’ with face-less communication on the Internet these days — what I say ‘teasingly’ can be taken as neutral — or nasty — or vindictive — or sexist ass-iness — depending on what the readers mood and mind filters are looking for at a given moment.
I will take Jax’s point into consideration and work at being as ‘gender neutral’ as possible in the future — but I can not promise I will not slip up… after all, I am a male of many decades who probably needs more training with a rolled up newspaper.
As for Spenserf’s points… I can see the reasoning. I am also sad to read California is getting to be such a sensitive place where one must tread and talk mindfully to keep from being attacked. Having been born on the coast of Southern California, it is always a jolt to realize how much the area has changed — going from Orange groves to the horizon to bare, denuded lands filled with industrial parks –and– the care-free joy of a day on the beach to stepping carefully so as not to step on the medical refuse (and used needles) washed ashore from the barges dumping urban trash in the ocean.
Now… I speak to all as PEOPLE… not as a male or female… rather, as those sapient folk?
I will make errors in tone and gender assumptions. Hey, I was breast fed as a baby… I am certain that is the cause of most of my ‘issues’ if you pay a couple hundred bucks an hour to some psycho-philo-therputetic person to ‘make a judgement’. I was also told to never strike a woman — (though that has changed over the years to — if attacked, you can defend yourself.) Guess what I am saying is…… please do not get into a big gender rant over this. I screwed up some …. and I’ll take my lumps. I might also turn right around and do or say something half way noble tomorrow….. and make an appraising comment on the curve of a female’s backside the day after that. Some one will agree; some one else might slap me; some one else might be snoring in the post game beer.
This is me —
and, to steal from a most honorable sage…
— I yam what I yam.
hate me. love me. it’s who I is.December 16, 2007 at 5:43 am #147321IcarusParticipantQuote:— I yam what I yam.
hate me. love me. it’s who I is.
I’ll take the love you part. Seriously, Kol. No one here would think you any of those negative things. I think that Jax was just pointing out how easy it is to use speech in a manner that is well… not mindful. Was I bothered by any of this? Naw… Now if you had suggested that I watched soap operas… now, that’s different. :rofl: Not really, though.
Although I expect fair and equal treatment for both sexes, I appreciate the more gentlemanly things that men do for women. I see it as a sad thing that men no longer open doors for women. Simple enough example, but you get the idea. It is sad. In my opinion, women and men can show one another equal respect, and by suggesting that women may be the only ones that like a television program is not disrespectful. It’s a natural assumption… demographically speaking.
Now, as to gender roles. I have two sons and one daughter. My husband and myself have taught my sons that they are never to strike girls. They can restrain girls from harming them, yes, but never strike them. I have also taught them that in extreme cases… well, they know that it better be a damned good reason if they lay hands on a woman. Now, they also have been taught to open doors for women, carry heavy things for women, tell them that they look nice when they go to an extra effort (but also stress how it only enhances their natural beauty ) They have been taught to look after girls and women. And yes, I have taught them to “charm.” So be it. I’m going to Hell.
My daughter has been taught to think independently. She has been taught how to fight, how to depend on herself, how to never back down when someone tells her she cannot do something. She has been taught to do everything that a boy would be taught (speaking old fashioned here). She’s tough. She’s smart. She’s independent, needs no yucky boys, and couldn’t care less what anyone thinks of her. She still appreciates it when the boys open the door for her, though. She demands respect, but she gives it in return.
(Alex thinks she’s a trip and a half. )
But, the point is that my kids get it. See, this isn’t about using appropriate words. It isn’t about speaking out of turn, or saying a genderized term. We should not have to be guarded in our speech at all times. When this occurs, it prevents true communication from happening, and so, relationships never reach an advanced level where they solidify. It’s the intent behind it all. The kids understand that it is about respect. In my belief system, we reflect the attributes of the natural energies of male and female. Both sexes have these, but society allows that certain sexes get certain things. It is chivalric and proper for a man to open a door for a woman. Is it because she is unable to do this for herself? Of course not. It is a way for men to show respect for the feminine energies (aka: Goddess!!!) inherent in the women.
Do white males have it tough? Yeah, they do. But look at everyone else that has had it tough. We don’t even realize how far the feminization of poverty reaches… But, here’s a hint, though… Most men of today aren’t the men of yesterday.
So, yeah, Jax has a point. Statements like that can be seen as derogatory. They can also be seen as charming, or silly, or as nothing as all. It’s all in our focus at the time of receiving the experience.
So, Kol… what kind of music do you like? :rofl:December 16, 2007 at 10:24 am #147322Kol DrakeModeratorQuote:So, Kol… what kind of music do you like? :rofl:
I am a beast of habit and memory.
I recall few specific bands or artists until I made it past 21… even though the Beatles and others were ‘the thing’ in my early early teens.. and many artists had what are now considered ‘classic hits’ these days.
I started listening to specific work based on my love of classical music. I got hooked on Walter/Wendy Carlos with the Switched on Bach record (( old method of sound reproduction using grooves impressed on discs of vinyl )). Then went to Clockwork Orange, the soundtrack to Tron, Sonic Seasoning, and others. Tomita’s synth version of Holt’s “The Planets” — though I enjoy a well orchestrated version as well. Tubular Bells (first record released by Virgin Records!) — as much for the sound as the pure tenacity of Mike Oldfield to do each individual instrument and record it on tape (no multi track back then… he taped paper over the tape to be used ‘later’)…. and ran the tape and played over and over to make it all ‘harmonize’ in the end. Still makes me feel some small sense of awe .. that someone cared enough to do all that… and make it pretty to boot.
Classical, what some call easy listening.. though I’m not a Musak fan. No heavy metal or blue grass or country western… just never got into those. No goth rock, punk rock, or others. Eclectic taste. I can enjoy singing along with Gene Kelly in ‘Singin in the Rain‘ as well as some humming and singing pieces from the Buggles, Video Killed the Radio Star or Dire Straits’, I want my MTV (Money for Nothin’)…. though I do better alone than with an audience… so no Karaoke.
Some Beatles these days, some 50’s stuff… and even as far back as some ‘big band era’ stuff like Benny Goodman, the Gershwins, etc. Rhapsody in Blue.
There are some good songs all over — John Denver, Phil Collins, Sting, the aforementined Dire Straits, Asia, Matchbox 20, Al Stewart, Billy Joel (one I almost cry over when I hear it… it reminds me of a friend who died a few years ago.. who should be around singing it to his daughter) — Kermit the Frog (Rainbow Connection), Dido, Cat Stevens, Iris Dement, Judy Collins (Send n the Clowns), Simon and Garfunkle and Paul Simon alone. Rufus Wainwright, Weird Al Yankovitz, Enya, Five for Fighting…
I’ve heard great, good and not so good music over the last 40 years. Some is here and gone again… some pops up to bring back good and bad memories. Heck, I even get to where I long to here ‘Breakfast in America”… even after hating it since my ‘next door dorm neighbor’ blew out three separate sets of speakers blasting it through my walls while in the service.
Oh, and I stood idlely by snickering when a friend went over to the records at the base store and folded.. yes, folded every copy of The Village People available. We had one young lady who played ‘them’ at full volume every day after work… out her window while she sipped White Russians… that lasted about a month….. argh! BUT.. I can smile these days at a single dose of YMCA or In the Navy… before the smile turns into teeth grinding.
My daughter entered the school beauty pageant with her skill being… her marital arts. I got to dress all in black and hold the boards she broke with punches and kicks. All correographed to the tune, Bring Me to Life , by Evanescence.
For a while I listened to alot of National Public Radio music.. to include some operas. (some I could make it through.. some !!!!!! ). Also to the standard ‘pop rock’ station.. since I tried to get a job with a station once upon a time. I am probably never gonna win at “Name that Tune”… but can enjoy a wide selection.
And…… way too much rambling.. but that’s me when it’s past 4 am.
Next day >>
Since I went to sleep with music on my mind, I recall many names and titles I ‘forgot’ …
So, to add a few more: Blue Man Group, Moody Blues, Electric Light Orchestra, er… well, those are what haven’t faded away…December 16, 2007 at 5:36 pm #147323Anonymous
I’ve got to say something: I know the kind of women who loved and lived for “Sex And The City”. It was a social phenonema. I also know women who love…oh that show about a suburban neighborhood on “Whisteria Lane”.
These are shows that attract women who likely are not going to be attracted to Jedi Forums…lololol…
Watching football? Okay – that or shovel snow? Give me the shovel. It’s mind-numbingly dumb. I do have opinions about people who watch it (not play it but watch it) and I also have opinions about people who play video games….
It’s because I don’t like to watch football or play video games.
But then I have two guilty “watching” pleasures – “Ugly Betty” and “Ghost Whisperer”. I also love to watch Jane Austen based films. But I loath most romance films…especially the romantic/comedy that are … modern and pithy.
So – maybe it’s more about the demographics of those who are attracted to Jedi Boards.
Maybe it’s about how we judge those who do what we don’t like to do – or watch what we don’t like to watch – because we’ve all been sucked into feeling we had to play or watch a game or show at someone’s home as a guest.
“How can you watch that?”
LOL… Is what we watch or play part of our identity?
….not sure…December 17, 2007 at 3:01 am #147324IcarusParticipantQuote:Watching football? Okay – that or shovel snow? Give me the shovel. It’s mind-numbingly dumb. I do have opinions about people who watch it (not play it but watch it) and I also have opinions about people who play video games….
It’s not mind-numbingly dumb, though. Do you like to see a master painter’s work? How about a master dancer perform? Or, maybe you like to see a person that has mastered the arts of debate and persuasive speeches perform in front of hundreds of people. Do you know why you like to see a Master work? Because they have taken an artform and perfected it. Watching the people play football is watching people that have taken physical conditioning to an entirely new level. Then, you add in the logistical elements of the game, and it is much like chess. Do you like chess? It’s watching two “generals” command their troops to go against the other general’s tactic. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But, it is fierce, brutal, and these guys give their all to condition their bodies and minds to compete in the last gladiatorial field there is.
I must say this, too. I think that we may be giving the wrong impression here. I, for one, do not think that people that watch shows like Desperate Housewives or Sex and the City are all shallow and silly. Not at all. It appeals to them in some way, entertains them, or provokes something within them. It’s a different approach to the same life. It’s totally cool. I know people that love Desperate Housewives, and they are still people that live a Jedi lifestyle, though they do not call it that.
Then, I know some people who have gone to Temple/Ritual/Mass/Services, came home and watched some religious programming, meditated, did some charity work, came home and watched House or Star Trek and were still completely shallow and immature.Quote:But I loath most romance films…especially the romantic/comedy that are … modern and pithy.
Yep. Have to agree with that one.Quote:LOL… Is what we watch or play part of our identity?
In some ways, yes. It appeals to something within us. Take football, for instance. It appeals to me in a very primitive way, and also allows me to experience a more logical type of thinking. I see men at their finest taking on equal adversaries… They struggle though pain and defeat and if they continue on at the top of their game, they eventually win. It’s about never giving up… never surrendering, thinking on your toes… and testing your own limits, then pushing past those limits.
Or…. Britcoms, for me…. It appeals to me because of the dry humour. The sarcasm. They slanderous assaults they give one another. I love the way that they poke fun at themselves. There is no PC worry. It’s just there and you can take it or leave it. I appreciate that.
You know what I think would be a great exercise for all of us? I think that we should, for one day, become the opposite of what we perceive ourselves to be. I think this would be good for all of us to try out, if only to gain a different perspective on people. And yeah, we should watch a show that we would never think of watching… Asta, you mentioned that you like Ugly Betty and Ghost Whisperer. I actually have seen Ghost Whisperer and liked it. So, I will watch Ugly Betty or something else that you might suggest for me… if….. if….. you will watch one quarter of football. (Preferably the Cowboys, but any team will do… as long as it isn’t the Patriots. )
:rofl:December 17, 2007 at 5:31 pm #147325Anonymous
I’m still shovelling snow here in Detroit…at home and the warehouse…ugh..
But I’ll shovel your snow rather than watch even 5 minutes of Football…lol…I think it’s so preposterous – but if you like it…that’s fine.
***I didn’t think anyone here disliked anyone for watching much of anything that may be put on primetime TV. But I do think there are identity-issues for some who watch certain programs…
It’s just kind of funny in a way… A really fun game would be to try to figure out the favorite TV shows of different Jedi Members…see how well we “read” them…LOL
Then ask … LOL…
I think we’d all be surprised?December 17, 2007 at 8:04 pm #147328IcarusParticipantQuote:But I’ll shovel your snow rather than watch even 5 minutes of Football…lol…I think it’s so preposterous – but if you like it…that’s fine.Quote:It’s just kind of funny in a way… A really fun game would be to try to figure out the favorite TV shows of different Jedi Members…see how well we “read” them…LOL
That does sound fun… so, who do we start with?
In a new thread perhaps?
Lets see Things never to be done to women.
No Cursing in front of them.
No hitting or even restraining them. (Unless they have been warned three times first. Then you can restrain them.) (No I have no idea why the number is 3)
Always stand when a woman joins or leaves a table.
Always open doors for them and hold them for others.
Offer to help carry things for them. (Only if you know them of course)
Kick the tar out of any man who so much as lays a hand on them harshly (unless he has given them their fair warnings *LOL* which flips back if he goes beyond restraint to kicking the tar out of him)
The list above are the lessons I learned from my father.
Do they make me a male chauvinist pig? Perhaps…. Or perhaps I simply learned to be polite and treat woman with a different degree of respect then I did men. Because like it or not they are not men. Nor are men Women. We are different. Neither is better then the other.To try and say otherwise is to try and say all apples are oranges and all oranges are apple and they should all be treated the same. It’s simply not true.
Yes, I fully admit I think all people should be treated equally at their jobs. If you can do it you should get it over those who can’t and get paid what anyone else doing it with equal time and experience is getting paid. I don’t care what sex or color or ancestry you have.
I feel the same way about schools and other such places where so called race and sex are determining factors in who gets what. I disagree that they should be involved at all. In the end the best applicant should get it. I don’t care who or what they are.
But to be honest, I don’t feel we are equal in all respects. To claim we are is simply in my opinion not accurate. Ignoring the rule about not hitting women. (For example in Martial Arts training and sparring.) Like it or not if you put a man and a woman in the same ring with equal size and skill and training. The man will win. Due to simply being built to absorb and dish out more abuse. Not because he is better at the art, or bigger, or faster. Simply due to the way the muscles and skeleton are designed.
Nor can a man have children. (Give birth) I honestly doubt we could endure that amount of prolonged pain *LOL*
Is this a way to say men are superior to women? Nope, just different. I think all to often in our rush to be equal we tend to ignore that we are still different. This is a dangerous thing as it fails to take into account the reality of the differences that exist in place of trying to make a false concept of equality.
I’m very old school in a lot of my thinking I admit this. I don’t agree with every kid getting to be on the team just so they all feel good about themselves. I don’t agree with lowering the bar to make it easier to reach. (A small example and a silly one I admit. The deans or honor roll list. Used to be straight A’s with zero absences in a semester to qualify. I only made it once myself. Because the rest of the time I was to lazy and didn’t try hard enough to make it. Used to be as noted hard to do. Now in the school I went to all you need are A’s and B’s to make it. Due to them not wanting kids to feel bad for not making it. They also removed the requirement of not missing any days. Another example is that before you were allowed to play in gym. You had to do 5 sit-up, push-ups and chin-ups (or hang for 2 minutes) This is no longer used. (Mind you exceptions were made with a doctors slip for conditions that didn’t allow such things)
Now I don’t think this way because I feel it’s wrong to help the children or even the adults. But because when you lower the bar your not helping them your enabling them to remain as they are. Instead of striving to be better.
Just my own thoughts on the equality of the sexes as well as a few other PC issues I disagree with. To the disgust often enough of those who feel I shouldn’t disagree with them.
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