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    Ying
    Participant

    The first chat for The Power of Now Study Group
    Date & Time: 1/4/12, approx 1pm until 3pm PDT.

    This record is in a bit of a strange structure. Generally, you can see the format:
    Ying
    ( )
    8:09 PMthis is

    You can see here ‘Ying’ is the person who has posted the reply. 8:09 is the time.

    Jax
    Just a note, this chat begins in 1 hour. If you are early, feel free to review the first two chapters of power of now. Ying will lead the chat.
    The only rule, besides normal behavioral rules, is to stay on topic with the topics included in the book and how they relate to the Jedi path. Outside discussions should remain in general chat or private chats. Thank you.

    Otherone 6:57
    wheres ying
    :(

    Jax 6:57 PMthis is
    We’ll give him a little time.

    Jax 7:00 PMthis is
    I’ll try to find his email

    Jax 7:03 PMthis is
    he’s the only person I know we’re waiting on lol

    Angelus 7:03 PMthis is
    that’s one way to build anticipation and make an entrance

    Jax 7:03 PMthis is
    I’m sure that’s it. :-)
    woohoo!
    there he goes

    Ying 7:05 PMthis is
    Hi everyone, sorry Im a bit ate

    MJ Hannigan 7:05 PMthis is
    such things are easier in skype, chat programs are such a mess

    Ying 7:09 PMthis is
    True, ok could each of you put a ‘2’ if you have read the first 2 chapters, a ‘1’ if you have read the first and a ‘n’ if you haven’t. Its ok if you have read the whole thing aswell

    Angelus 7:09 PMthis is
    1

    zen-ryo senshi 7:09 PMthis is
    .5

    Atticus 7:10 PMthis is
    2

    zen-ryo senshi 7:10 PMthis is
    That’s 0.5, not chapter 5.

    Jax 7:10 PMthis is
    1 (thought I read 2, I was confused by the ebook version)

    Otherone 7:10 PMthis is
    2

    zen-ryo senshi 7:11 PMthis is
    Sorry. I was closer to the end of 1 than I realized. I have completed 1.

    Ying 7:11 PMthis is
    lol

    k :)

    Is that everyone?

    Jax 7:14 PMthis is
    we need 8 responses plus you ;-)

    Ying 7:15 PMthis is
    oh yer lol 2

    Otherone 7:15 PMthis is
    i have actually read all of it
    :O

    Ying 7:15 PMthis is
    K

    Ying 7:15 PMthis is
    It was like that for me aswell

    hooked’

    Otherone 7:16 PMthis is
    yea was good
    but i went on a information overload after a bit

    Ying 7:17 PMthis is
    Nitsud and Jeff, have you read the first chapter, or both the first and second?

    Ying 7:19 PMthis is
    where did atticus go?

    Jax 7:19 PMthis is
    I’m sure he’ll be back. I vote for moving forward with the first question. ;-)

    Atticus 7:20 PMthis is
    I’m ghere

    Ying 7:21 PMthis is
    Ok, so I think we should go ahead with this structure, tell me if you want to change it. :)
    1 3 or so questions answered by each person

    1. 3*

    2. A discussion on the different perspectives and experiences

    3. one by one we can outline what we found most helpful or what really resonated with us in chapter 1 or 2

    – Note: feel free to link all of this to your Jedi path while discussing!

    4. a discussion of the ideas that we had trouble with

    Jax 7:24 PMthis is
    (sorry, I have to leave for about a half hour or so. I’ll catch up when I return.)

    Ying 7:25 PMthis is
    Is that ok everyone?

    Atticus 7:25 PMthis is
    I’m ok with that.

    Otherone 7:25 PMthis is
    yep

    Angelus 7:25 PMthis is
    yup

    zen-ryo senshi 7:26 PMthis is
    sure

    Otherone 7:26 PMthis is
    i have a quick question first

    Ying 7:26 PMthis is
    sure :)

    Otherone 7:26 PMthis is
    how many of you would call your self enlightened?
    if any
    I know that im not :P

    Ying 7:28 PMthis is
    I’ve had a taste, which lasted about 1 or 2 weeks. It was… I’m reluctant to put it into words. It was pure, simple and wonderful. You can talk to me about that privately if you wish.

    Angelus 7:28 PMthis is
    well, that would depend on what is meant by “enlightenment”

    Ying 7:28 PMthis is
    So, Im gonna go ahead with the chat now…

    Otherone 7:28 PMthis is
    go for it
    i will chat with you later about it

    Ying 7:30 PMthis is
    Thank you for leading me into the first question Angelus!
    1. What was your idea of enlightenment before reading the chapters, has it changed? If so, How?

    Otherone 7:30 PMthis is
    for me enlightenment was something mystical

    Ying 7:30 PMthis is
    I guess we don’t have to have a structure for this bit, just go all out.

    think of the questions as a tool to base discussion on, like a topic

    Otherone 7:31
    and it seemed once you reached it you were just enlightened and lived in that state
    however now i can see that enlightenment is a journey of every second being aware of what causes you and others suffering

    Ying 7:32
    what do you mean by ‘live’ in that state… is that a passive ‘don’t do anything’ or a normal, everyday life but with enlightenment? :)

    Atticus 7:32
    I don’t know that these chapters have *changed* my idea of what enlightenment is, just given me some (slightly) more concrete characteristics

    Otherone 7:32
    right i thought it would just be a passive state

    Ying 7:33
    I can see how that would happen Atticus :)

    Did that change Otherone?

    Otherone 7:33
    yes
    for sure
    it is almost the complete opposite of staying aware of every moment and what causes yourself and others suffering
    sorry opposite of passice
    passive

    Ying 7:34
    thats ok :)

    Angelus 7:35
    I did like how it was stated in the book, enlightenment is oneness with Being

    Ying 7:35
    That is the key

    Angelus 7:35
    it is both You and Greater than you

    Ying 7:35
    Yes

    Angelus 7:36
    I might even change the wording to say Being in Oneness

    zen-ryo senshi 7:36
    I think “enlightenment” is a poor word for what we are talking about.

    Otherone 7:36
    the thing is you have to understand “Being” for that statement

    Ying 7:36
    I like that Angelus!

    zen-ryo senshi 7:36
    The work enlightenment implies that it is simply something you need to learn.

    Ying 7:36
    Zen, how come?

    Otherone 7:36
    right that is what i thought enlightenment was

    zen-ryo senshi 7:37
    But it is, instead, a practice you need to develope.

    Atticus 7:37
    I think I agree with that zen-ryo, the term carries those connotations for me as well

    Otherone 7:37
    something to feel not think about

    Ying 7:37
    definetely, thinking wont get you there: The greatest obstacle is your mind

    Angelus 7:37
    I agree Zen, hence why my change in wording, “being” would then imply the practice

    Ying 7:38
    Jeff, what about you?

    zen-ryo senshi 7:38
    And learning won’t get you there either.

    Otherone 7:38
    learning implies that at some point you just know it and can stop with the learning

    Ying 7:38
    So what is there beyond learning and mind?

    Atticus 7:38
    although I need to learn the practice to be able to put it into . . . practice.

    zen-ryo senshi 7:38
    like Angelus said, Being!

    Ying 7:39
    Yes… I’m not going to ask for deeper explanation of Being because that would be pointless! I did hear Eckhart once say, ‘the analysis of pointers is pointless’, :P

    zen-ryo senshi 7:40
    And I

    Ying 7:40
    Unless anyone is unclear about the basic idea of Being as conveyed in the book?

    zen-ryo senshi 7:40
    And I

    Otherone 7:40
    I tend to call Being…. being the sould
    soul

    Atticus 7:40
    It’s coming clear to me

    zen-ryo senshi 7:41
    and I’m not saying that no learning needs to be done. We develop expectations that can get in the way of “being” and we need to learn how to let go of them.
    But leaning only shows you the path. Practice moves you along it.

    Atticus 7:41
    ^ this, exactly, zen

    Ying 7:43
    I think that is an insight we should put in the Power of Now area :)

    Ok so anyone else want to talk about their understanding of enlightenment before we move on?

    Otherone 7:44
    I will understand enlightenment when i get there eh:P
    and until then i wont worry about the future

    zen-ryo senshi 7:45
    No. You will never “get there”.
    Enlightenment is a practice, not a destination.

    Ying 7:45
    Nods

    zen-ryo senshi 7:46
    But not worrying about the future is a good thing.
    Like destinations, the future can distract us from the now.

    Otherone 7:46
    ay see i still have problems with thinking you can reach it

    Ying 7:46
    yes

    zen-ryo senshi 7:47
    Don’t look for a place to go or a state to be in. Look at what you are doing now and how you are doing it now.

    Ying 7:47
    That is ok, its part of the process

    Eh, language makes it sound like enlightenment is something to ‘achieve’, which requires time.

    Otherone 7:47
    correct
    He uses a negative definition so that the mind cannot make it into something to believe in or into a superhuman accomplishment, a goal that is impossible for you to attain. Despite this precaution, the majority of Buddhists still believe that enlightenment is for the Buddha, not for them, at least not in this lifetime.
    from the bood
    bok
    book

    Ying 7:48
    Yerp

    And by negative definition, I believe he means something that is difficult to think about

    Otherone 7:49
    It only tells you what enlightenment is not: no suffering

    zen-ryo senshi 7:50
    By telling you what it’s not, he is hoping that you will drop those things. If you drop enough, all that will be left is being.

    Ying 7:50
    Wonderful Zen!

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:50 PMthis is
    +1

    Ying
    ( )
    7:50 PMthis is
    :P

    Ok, so we will go on to the next question now

    2. how ahs your experience been thus far in ‘watching the thinker’. Have you noticed the old ‘conditioned’ thought patterns that Eckhart speaks of?

    Otherone
    ( )
    7:52 PMthis is
    yes very much so

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:53 PMthis is
    oh absolutely

    Otherone
    ( )
    7:53 PMthis is
    i catch myself laughing at a lot of my thoughts
    now

    Ying
    ( )
    7:53 PMthis is
    That is wonderful

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:53 PMthis is
    I am not there yet

    Angelus
    ( )
    7:53 PMthis is
    that’s something I’ve been doing for quite some time

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:54 PMthis is
    I am still too new at this practice to be able to refrain from judging myself for falling into conditioned patterns

    Ying
    ( )
    7:54 PMthis is
    I believe it would be a basic practice in meditation for most people atthe IJRS… yes?

    Otherone
    ( )
    7:54 PMthis is
    yea i agree, I still do it unconsciously a lot of times, but sometimes i do catch myself and it makes me laugh
    I would assume that is one of the reasons of meditation

    Ying
    ( )
    7:55 PMthis is
    Thats ok Atticus, I fall into conditioned patterns as well. To not fall into them, you have to be very alert to your inner and outer state, so that you aren’t seduced by them.

    Its something I am getting the hang of

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:56 PMthis is
    yes, those old mental grooves are deeply worn, I think

    Ying
    ( )
    7:56 PMthis is
    I’ll be back in a sec, continue and I’ll catch up :)

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    7:56 PMthis is
    I think I have fallen out of the practice of “watching the thinker”. I have greatly reduced my conditioned responses and my judgements, but I still have some and need to get back into the practice.

    Otherone
    ( )
    7:57 PMthis is
    i have a harder time of day dreaming then judgements
    but i still judge as well its hard to stop the thoughts before they arise

    Nitsud is now Guest FaithGuest Faith is now Nitsud

    Angelus
    ( )
    7:58 PMthis is
    but why stop the thoughts?

    Atticus
    ( )
    7:59 PMthis is
    I don’t know that they can be stopped, at least in my mind. It seems like the first key is to recognize them and understand that that is not ME having that thought, but a construct of some kind

    Angelus
    ( )
    7:59 PMthis is
    that is where I disagree

    Ying
    ( )
    7:59 PMthis is
    Go on Atticus…

    Angelus
    ( )
    7:59 PMthis is
    those thoughts are a part of you

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:00 PMthis is
    oh yes, of course

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:00 PMthis is
    are they though
    cause a lot of times i will get a negative thought about someone
    and i almost scold myself in my head

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:01 PMthis is
    just because you get a negative thought does not make it bad in itself
    it’s how you act on those thoughts

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:01 PMthis is
    how can it be a part of me and I completly disagree with it

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:01 PMthis is
    because it is a part of your shadow
    that part of yourself that you hide

    Ying
    ( )
    8:01 PMthis is
    I tihnk the only thing that makes a thought negative is the energy/emotion it creates

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:01 PMthis is
    that part that challenges you

    Ying
    ( )
    8:04 PMthis is
    So, lets look at this from this perspective for a second, I find it helpful :)
    You have consciousness, or a ‘space of awareness’ in which thoughts, emotions and the whole world of form (physical universe) appears. Thoughts, emotion and everything else is constantly changing, its the nature of the universe, but isn’t the canvas in which all it changes actually the one permanent ingrediant in all our experience?

    and that part of your conditioning that has manifested and is challenging you, is a part of those changing circumstances/

    .*

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:06 PMthis is
    are you suggesting that permanence is preferrential?

    Ying
    ( )
    8:06 PMthis is
    Did this help or?

    lol

    Im not suire what you mean by preferrential? :P

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:07 PMthis is
    I’m looking at your assumptions
    are you saying the permanence is good and change is bad?

    Ying
    ( )
    8:07 PMthis is
    oh no lol

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:07 PMthis is
    niether

    Ying
    ( )
    8:07 PMthis is
    no good or bad here, it is as it is

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:08 PMthis is
    hmmm
    The missing bit for me is, what would the canvas be in that metaphor?
    I am struggling to conceptualize that

    Ying
    ( )
    8:08 PMthis is
    Dont try to

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:08 PMthis is
    “Change is the only Constant”

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:08 PMthis is
    ^

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:09 PMthis is
    ok

    Ying
    ( )
    8:09 PMthis is
    I will look into that in a second otherone :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:10 PMthis is
    into?
    nvm
    i got it

    Ying
    ( )
    8:10 PMthis is
    first though, Atticus: in all of your experiences, what could you say has been the permanent quality in their? Your thoughts perhaps… or do they come and go constantly? Your emotion? the people and places?

    k

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:10 PMthis is
    none of the above, I think

    Ying
    ( )
    8:11 PMthis is
    Right

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:11 PMthis is
    to a greater or lesser extent, all of those are transitory

    Ying
    ( )
    8:11 PMthis is
    Nods :)

    So what is it in you, that can see that

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:11 PMthis is
    BEING

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:11 PMthis is
    consciousness? or maybe awareness is a better word
    or yes, being

    Ying
    ( )
    8:12 PMthis is
    Excellent… but dont get stuck on the WORDS.. go beyond. Use them as pointers!

    So, you say consciousness or awareness, but what is that as a felt experience?

    Can step back from all the changing phenomena and be there as the witnessing consciousness? what does it mean to do so?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:14 PMthis is
    to live

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:15 PMthis is
    to me, at the moment, it means being aware that my perception of the thing is not the thing

    Ying
    ( )
    8:15 PMthis is
    yes

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:15 PMthis is
    but that’s not really expressing it very well

    Ying
    ( )
    8:15 PMthis is
    its a start, and a good one :)

    So does anyone want to throw in a question for the last /prompt’ of discussion?

    Jax
    ( )
    8:18 PMthis is
    (back, eating, I’ll just read and enjoy)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:18 PMthis is
    i will ask a bit about emotions
    Is it neccesary

    Ying
    ( )
    8:19 PMthis is
    Welcome back Jax :) Ok Otherone :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:19 PMthis is
    it intigrate them and not just be aware of them
    or is being aware of them a form of intigration

    Ying
    ( )
    8:20 PMthis is
    Im unsure of what you mean, are you asking if its necessary to integrate our emotions than just be aware of them?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:20 PMthis is
    correct

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:20 PMthis is
    integrate?

    Ying
    ( )
    8:20 PMthis is
    ok :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:20 PMthis is
    like do integration meditations

    Ying
    ( )
    8:21 PMthis is
    Yes, if you could expand on ‘integration’ :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:21 PMthis is
    pretty much
    as i understand it
    Integration is realizing an emotion you have had, anger, fear, shame, etc.
    and visualizing the instance that caused that emotion
    then feeling that emotion to its fullest
    and keeping the feeling,
    and trying to realize what caused that emotion to rise, why whatever happened bothered you
    and finding the true cause of the emotion and staying in the feeling of it until the energy of your emotion diminishes

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:25 PMthis is
    I have to confess, the “keeping” or “staying in” is not a familiar practice to me

    Ying
    ( )
    8:25 PMthis is
    Some of that is the same as being present with the emotion… going into it and being with it as a witness or observer, feeling it fully. Im unsure if you need to discover the root of it though, I think being present with it is enough. Though, you can delve into that part of your conditioning if you wish :)

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:26 PMthis is
    examine, certainly, even feel it fully

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:26 PMthis is
    yes feel the energy of it
    actually feel that emotion entirely

    Ying
    ( )
    8:26 PMthis is
    Emotion actually becomes very exciting and alive once you go into it as a witness

    lol )

    ;)*

    Jax
    ( )
    8:27 PMthis is
    I am going to disagree that it is necessary. There is danger in sitting in it too much because we can’t see clearly enough to release it
    It’s too hard to find the root causes and release them because the thought patterns get stuck in the emotion

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:27 PMthis is
    that was my question

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:27 PMthis is
    I look at emotions much differently than that.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:27 PMthis is
    is it neccessary to integrate
    or just be aware

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:28 PMthis is
    To me, an emotion is a tool. It is a piece of information that can be considered.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:28 PMthis is
    Yes, it can be very difficult to pinpoint the root of emotions, with all the different factors that may be in play. I tihnk this goes back to what Eckhart spoke of:

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:28 PMthis is
    but to get rid of that conditioned thought

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:29 PMthis is
    Emotional reactions are a way for our past experiences to talk to us about what they percieve in our current situation.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:29 PMthis is
    wont it take a matter of sitting in a situation until you find the root of that thought

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:29 PMthis is
    When you notice you are having an emotional reaction to something, it might be valuable to ask what from your past has taught you to react this way.
    Then you can consider that root as a helpful bit of information to consider.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:29 PMthis is
    yes i agree

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:30 PMthis is
    But you don’t have to have an automatic reaction to it.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:30 PMthis is
    but also i like to look at why it affects me
    like if i get mad that someone makes a joke about me

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:30 PMthis is
    You can decide that it is not appropriate in this situation and do something else instead.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:30 PMthis is
    i like to think why would that make me angry
    did it affect who i am
    did it actually hurt me
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFGAFD6m…
    a little video from maha vajra on integration
    he explains better then me:P

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:31 PMthis is
    conscious dissocation, in a way

    Jax
    ( )
    8:31 PMthis is
    I struggle with this idea because science does not support that we can avoid initial reactions. It doesn’t route through the conscious part of the brain

    Ying
    ( )
    8:32 PMthis is
    “Yes, its wonderful when you aren able to do that :) I quite enjoy introspection of emotions :) Though, it isn’t completely necessary. The conditioned reaction patterns will dissolve when you no longer are identified with them. When you become the witness to them, rather than seduced by them, you no longer feed them unconsciously with your thoughts. So they cannot survive for very long.

    Jax
    ( )
    8:32 PMthis is
    But that triggers internal responses, it doesn’t trigger external responses.

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:32 PMthis is
    However, I am concerned that “staying in the feeling” of an emotion is a dangerous feedback loop.
    You don’t need to stay in it to examine it.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:32 PMthis is
    How so Zen?

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:32 PMthis is
    Alirght, I just caught up from the beginning, lol. And I agree what Jax just said :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:33 PMthis is
    the point of staying in it is so that you can get rid of your loop

    Ying
    ( )
    8:33 PMthis is
    Nice to have you here nitsud! :D

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:33 PMthis is
    Step outside of it and examine it objectively.

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:33 PMthis is
    we don’t have to “avoid” them, just “understand” them
    like Zen said, emotion can be a useful tool

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:34 PMthis is
    Emotion can be extremely useful, for sure

    Ying
    ( )
    8:34 PMthis is
    Oh, I think we may have a misunderstanding of terms…. Go into the emotion and feeling it, for me, is the same as watching and feeling it.

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:34 PMthis is
    Otherone, I don’t understand how you can get rid of it while staying in it.
    To me that sounds like saying the best way to keep from drowning is to stay in the water.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:35 PMthis is
    go into, again for me, doesn’t mean you think about it more and keep manifesting it

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:35 PMthis is
    the best way to learn to swim is to stay in the water
    just start in shallow water
    it is not like the emotion has just occured

    Ying
    ( )
    8:36 PMthis is
    Just to clear up some terms: Otherone, do you mean that by going into the emotion you go into it and feel it fully, without thinking about it but just being with it?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:36 PMthis is
    you are going into the emotion on purpose

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:36 PMthis is
    But if you don’t know how to swim, it’s easy to get caught by the undertow and loose it all.

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:36 PMthis is
    that, though, is precisely the opposite of how I visualize the process of examining an emotional response

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:36 PMthis is
    with the intent on observing that emotion, to feel your body and how that emotion makes you feel

    Ying
    ( )
    8:37 PMthis is
    Its ok if we have different ways of dealing with emotions :)

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:37 PMthis is
    I consciously visualize the emotion as a separate thing, from my consciousness of it I guess

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:37 PMthis is
    If you are drowning and have the option to get out of the water and rethink your strategy or stay in the water and hope you figure it out, it seems obvious to my mind which you should take.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:37 PMthis is
    I would suggest watching that video i posted
    he is where i learned it from
    and he can explain it so much better than i can
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFGAFD6m…

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    I’ll watch it later.

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    but I think I see what you’re saying

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    I’d rather relate things to the book now.

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    it’s something like inoculation
    ?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    Or to our own personal experiences.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    and yes ying
    that is what i mean

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    small doses, or staying in the shallow end

    Ying
    ( )
    8:38 PMthis is
    Yes :)

    Atticus
    ( )
    8:39 PMthis is
    so that when the deep end comes up on you, you are better equipped and experienced?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:39 PMthis is
    ^

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:39 PMthis is
    Consciousness is only the tip of the ice burg as far as thinking and emoting goes. Our brain perceives and processes a lot more than our consciousness is aware of. So there are aspects of our emotes we will only get in gaps.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:39 PMthis is
    it is not as if a situation just happened
    it is later
    as you meditate

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:39 PMthis is
    Unquestionably, there have been times when I have engulfed myself in emotion for some purpose.

    Jax
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    Yes, but with the book, the point is to return your focus from what you’re emotional about to the now

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    replay the situation with the intent of understanding

    Jax
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    and that allows you to release the emotional trigger, right?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    observing

    Ying
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    Jax is on the right track :)

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:40 PMthis is
    But generally when I feel an emotion that I didn’t plan for, I try to step back and decide what has triggered the emotion, then decide what will be most helpful.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:41 PMthis is
    The book is about being conscious of your thought and emotion in the present moment so you no longer are seduced by the reaction patterns you’ve been conditioned into

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:41 PMthis is
    but that is when the emotion is occuring
    with a real situation

    Jax
    ( )
    8:41 PMthis is
    the emotion occurs now, but in response to something typically that happened in the past, or which you think will happen in the future

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:41 PMthis is
    and i agree becoming aware of the now is the best approach

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:41 PMthis is
    Ah, Otherone. The idea of coming back to it was an important step that I missed.
    So, you are making a decision to later revisit the emotion and see what you can learn from it.
    That makes sense.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:42 PMthis is
    correct
    not while it happens

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:42 PMthis is
    But how do you handle an emotion at the moment it rears its ugly head?

    Ying
    ( )
    8:43 PMthis is
    What makes you say emotion is ugly?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:43 PMthis is
    its difficult
    you need to be aware of your thoughts
    and body

    Ying
    ( )
    8:43 PMthis is
    yes

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:43 PMthis is
    emotions can be felt in the body before you think of them
    that is why kuji in likes to give you points in the body to be aware of

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:44 PMthis is
    Which is why the heart was the seat of intelligence for so long

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:44 PMthis is
    The ugly part of emotion is when it causes you to react in an automatic way without evaluating the circumstance.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:44 PMthis is
    true, unconssious patterns we aren’t yet aware of can trigger emotional reactions… but you can still be there as a witness so the emotion doesn’t seduce you

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:44 PMthis is
    Or probably one reason, anyway

    Ying
    ( )
    8:45 PMthis is
    So, Zen… I would say that ugliness is a part of not being aware of our thoughts and emotion so they don’t control us, do you agree?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:45 PMthis is
    OK. I
    I’ll go with that.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:45 PMthis is
    you don’t have to :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:46 PMthis is
    we are ugly people
    when not aware
    lol

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:46 PMthis is
    We are people with ugly possabilities.
    Deep down we are not so ugly. But we start to develope ugly masks.

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:46 PMthis is
    “When all the world recognizes beauty as beauty, this in itself is ugliness” :)

    Ying
    ( )
    8:46 PMthis is
    ok, lets go back on topic now. Are you all ok with going to our personal experience with what we have read so far or dod you think we have discussed that enough?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:47 PMthis is
    Who’s that from Nitsud

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:47 PMthis is
    Lau Tzu
    It’s Tao Te Ching chapter 2

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:47 PMthis is
    i want to read that book
    but dont want to buy
    and ying

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:48 PMthis is
    I want to add one more thing about emotions

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:48 PMthis is
    It’s all over online.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:48 PMthis is
    i am up for anything

    Ying
    ( )
    8:48 PMthis is
    k :)

    What did you want to add Angelus, last thing before we move on

    Nitsud is now Guest Claire

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:49 PMthis is
    just that mustn’t forget the value emotions provide as well. That’s why I didn’t like Tolle’s use of one Latin meaning of emotion (to disturb). I like the alternate Latin meaning (to move). Emotions can prepare us for some action

    Ying
    ( )
    8:49 PMthis is
    wonderful pick up :)

    Jax
    ( )
    8:49 PMthis is
    by the way, it’s been almost 2 hours. We should be careful not to go too far

    Ying
    ( )
    8:49 PMthis is
    yes, that is why we are moving on

    Jax
    ( )
    8:49 PMthis is
    I have to go either way, but wanted to mention that. :-)

    Guest Claire is now Nitsud

    Ying
    ( )
    8:50 PMthis is
    lol, cya later, have a blessed day :)

    Jax
    ( )
    8:50 PMthis is
    This was very interesting. We will have to make note of thigns to continue next time around.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:50 PMthis is
    I will be recording it all and posting it as an archive thing in the study group

    Jax
    ( )
    8:51 PMthis is
    Excellent. Alright, enjoy everyone!

    Guest Claire
    ( )
    8:51 PMthis is
    Have a good one Jax
    Why am I Claire? Weird
    There we go

    Ying
    ( )
    8:52 PMthis is
    lol… I think we shouldn move into what we found difficult in the book, do you all agree?

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:52 PMthis is
    staying present
    so hard

    Ying
    ( )
    8:52 PMthis is
    Yes, its difficult at first, but it gets easier :)

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:52 PMthis is
    i will even catch myself thinking about being present
    :(

    Ying
    ( )
    8:53 PMthis is
    I do that often

    hahaha

    dont beat yourself up about it

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:53 PMthis is
    And I catch myself chastising myself for not being present either.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:53 PMthis is
    lol
    yep

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:53 PMthis is
    Then I chastise myself for chastising myself.

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:54 PMthis is
    haha

    Ying
    ( )
    8:54 PMthis is
    Is it you who is chatising or your mind?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:54 PMthis is
    I’m not sure I follow how you mean that. It is in my mind and it is simply a distraction from the now.
    It

    Ying
    ( )
    8:55 PMthis is
    yes

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:55 PMthis is
    it is still him
    just not being
    right?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:55 PMthis is
    It’s a cycle. I want something to think about. That fact that I shouldn’t be thinking about anything is sufficient.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:56 PMthis is
    So, remember befire we discussed that we aren’t the thoughts and emotion or experiences we have but rather the one permanent quality in them ,the awareness behind it or consciousness?

    Guest Nate is now Rebekah

    Otherone
    ( )
    8:56 PMthis is
    yea i get that
    but its not someone else having those thoughts in his head
    its still a part of him
    or myself as i do the same
    its just not a part of my being which is what i strive for

    Ying
    ( )
    8:57 PMthis is
    This is spoken of much later in the book. But we can talk about it nwo :)

    now*

    Nitsud
    ( )
    8:57 PMthis is
    It’s his brain processing his processes

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    8:58 PMthis is
    I’m a terrible hypnotism subject, because while I’m being hypnotized, I’m analysing the hypnosis.

    Ying
    ( )
    8:59 PMthis is
    hahahaha

    sounds like something I would do

    Angelus
    ( )
    8:59 PMthis is
    and I would analyze myself while being hypnotized

    Guest Nate
    ( )
    8:59 PMthis is
    (your not the only one that does that Zen-ryo…I have a hard time being hypnotized as well)

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:00 PMthis is
    By repramending oneself for taking a tangent away from the present isn’t that in itself a tangent to the past?
    Vicious cycle.

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:00 PMthis is
    It’s certainly a tangent, but maybe it isn’t always a tangent to the past.
    Sometimes I start lecturing myself on how next time I need to let go of whatever it was.

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:01 PMthis is
    If you’re beating yourself up for something it would be a past event you’re beating yourself up for, yes?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:01 PMthis is
    At least until I realize that I’m now lecturing myself.

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:01 PMthis is
    Ahh, I see

    Ying
    ( )
    9:02 PMthis is
    So, the basic idea that Eckhart discusses in the book in relation to whether we are the ones doing the thinking, is that we believe we are because we derive a sense of self from our thoughts, but we aren’t actually doing the thinking, our mind is, and we are just identified with the processes. Its like we are delusioned in a way. We believe who we are is our thoughts, so we believe we are thinking, yet its just our mind.

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:03 PMthis is
    I haven’t fully integrated his terminology yet and still get confused at times while reading. So mind is the creation we put on self to judge everything?

    Otherone
    ( )
    9:03 PMthis is
    the mind is just that
    the mind

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:03 PMthis is
    We are Legion :p

    Ying
    ( )
    9:03 PMthis is
    Im not sure what you mean… sorry about the terminology

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:04 PMthis is
    Without a mind, is there even a me?

    Otherone
    ( )
    9:04 PMthis is
    yes
    being
    now
    without a mind you would die
    but there would still be you

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:04 PMthis is
    Depends on what you mean by “you”

    Ying
    ( )
    9:04 PMthis is
    Zen, go into that… what does it feel like to imagine the thought-based self you beleive to be who you are.. doesn’t exist

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:05 PMthis is
    The brain can die while machines keep a body alive… many would argue that the body is no longer that person.

    Ying
    ( )
    9:05 PMthis is
    It never was

    Ying
    ( )
    9:07 PMthis is
    Its been 2 hours everyone, feel free to go :)

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:07 PMthis is
    I can understand living in the now and quieting the mind. I do it frequently. But there is still a threshold I can’t cross in understanding how there can be a me at all. I’m either separate from the universe or I’m only a construct in the universe. But how can I still be me without the constructs?
    How could the Buddha be fully enlightened and still teach what he knows to others?

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:08 PMthis is
    You can’t be you without the constructs from what I’ve read… but I haven’t read the book so I’m not sure where Ying is coming from.

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:09 PMthis is
    How can he still be the buddha if he has become.

    Otherone
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    this was fun

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    Ideas can be passed along, people can presume what the Buddha would say based on his writings or what they presume would be his ideals. That’s the best explanation I can think of.

    Otherone
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    enjoyed it but have homework….. till next time
    bye

    Ying
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    From my experience, when Ihad a taste of self realisation or enlightenment, its like you recognise yur true sef within or as the very essence of all things. You know that as yourself, and that flows into what you do.

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    but that’s the central thesis of the first chapter, and possibly more later

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    cya later Otherone

    Ying
    ( )
    9:10 PMthis is
    cya Otherone! :) Thank you for joining in!

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:11 PMthis is
    that while my mind is certainly part of me, it’s not the sum total of me

    Ying
    ( )
    9:11 PMthis is
    yes

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:11 PMthis is
    if I can perceive that I have a mind, or that I am thinking,

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:11 PMthis is
    But how can “I” be the “essence of all things”? If I am the essence of ALL things then I am no longer ME.

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:11 PMthis is
    there must be something larger that is more fully me that can see that
    oh no, i was responding to you not to what nitsud wrote
    sorry about the confusion

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:12 PMthis is
    I agree with what you said Atticus, the mind is a product of time so a mind, cloned and replicated, could never be the original without those experiences.

    Ying
    ( )
    9:12 PMthis is
    That’s right Zen… I feel you are trying to grasp it mentally, but trust me, it only comes once you have experienced it and can see from that experiencehow you can know yourself as life itself and still function

    Yes, so if you can watch your mind who is watching?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:13 PMthis is
    Well, to tell the truth, I do not expect and answer or an explanation.
    I was more expressing where I still see my own limitations.

    Ying
    ( )
    9:13 PMthis is
    o, my assumption was wrong :)

    ok*

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:13 PMthis is
    I did put it as a question and led us along a merry goose chase.

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:14 PMthis is
    haha

    Ying
    ( )
    9:14 PMthis is
    Thats ok, it made for production

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:14 PMthis is
    I love epistemology, interesting stuff.

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:15 PMthis is
    yikes lol

    Ying
    ( )
    9:17 PMthis is
    Ok Im going to record this convo and post it in The Power Of Now study group area of the IJRS for record and insight :)

    are we finshing up here then?

    zen-ryo senshi
    ( )
    9:17 PMthis is
    Time for me to study my Japanese.

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:17 PMthis is
    ok

    Ying
    ( )
    9:17 PMthis is
    :)

    Atticus
    ( )
    9:17 PMthis is
    thank you all for helping me grok more fully :)

    Ying
    ( )
    9:18 PMthis is
    Thats ok, I hope this chat was beneficial to you all! :) MTFBWYA

    Nitsud
    ( )
    9:18 PMthis is
    Take it easy everybody

    Ying
    ( )
    9:20 PMthis is
    cya later

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