Grey Jedi

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shea (shlomit) created the topic: Grey Jedi

I had a lot of time to think about this subject, and after reading a little more into it I have some arguments of my own I would like to get your opinion about. In the Jedi Church there have been many, many posts about what it a grey Jedi and what is the grey Jedi code. I used to consider myself a grey Jedi (for reasons I will write about next). But since I read peoples arguments both for and against it, I think I have changed my mind about what I will consider myself and my perspective (for the light side, don’t worry).
1. Balance- grey Jedi claim to be focused on preserving balance between dark and light, some even claim to be a balance between Jedi and Sith. However by remaining in a state of always trying to keep this balance wouldn’t that take most or all of your focus? How will anyone be able to be of any real use if their invest everything in preserve balance? (I actually believed that being a grey Jedi is to be imbalanced, and trying to gain balance. So this title for me expresses the imperfection and flaws I carry with me).
2. Moral relativism – I personally don’t believe in this idea, I think there are a lot of acts that are universally understood as bad or even evil. Claiming that because it is a part of a culture is racism at its purest form. Because it claims that they not only don’t need to change but that they can't. Educations should be available to anyone and so does the basic right to live free. We need to stop romanticize the idea of culture is an absolute static factor and instead look at culture as an ever changing and evolving part of life. With the ability to change according to universal changes around the world.
3. Good vs. evil- some claim to know what is evil we first must know what is good. This would be correct in theory but not so much in practice. In order for people to want to be good and add kindness and compassion to the world they need to want to do it. Claiming that there must be evil in the world so there be good is wrong; Because in my opinion evil or darkness is a self-maintaining machine and as long as there is injustice and inequality there will always be people who are willing to do bad things. The same goes for good or light, as long as there is compassion, education and freedom of speech there will always be people willing to do good things but good and evil do not shadow one another. Ying and yang as some people to use for an example for this idea is misinterpreted. The way I understand it NOT two opposites but two that complete each other. Evil doesn’t complete good; it just amplifies how complicated life is.
4. The easy path- There is no such thing as an easy path. We don’t know how a person choose to his\ hers path therefore saying someone is taking the easy path is an insult. Although some of us choose to not deal with their issues and that is way it may seem though their lives are easier but there is nothing harder than carrying your problems. Some people are just not ready to deal with them. That moment is when kindness is at its best use. That is when listening and understand becomes a form of teaching.
So those are my arguments, I would really like to read what you think of those points. thanks for reading. :meditate

..."Paper is dead without words
Ink idle without a poem
All the world dead without stories
Without love and disarming beauty

Careless realism costs souls"....(-Nightwish)
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Kol Drake replied the topic: Grey Jedi

The Sith follow the dark side, and are evil; the Jedi follow the light side and are good. Even the movie and book Jedi tend to view the galaxy with this lens and place all Force users into those two categories. But what of the morally ambiguous path, or those who wish to operate outside of these orders and their goals? These men and women are called the Gray Jedi.

Beholden to no Jedi or Sith code and answering to no one but themselves.

Gray Jedi are oftentimes best described by what they are not rather than what they are. They are not Jedi, as their name may imply, but they are not Sith. They do not follow any code other than their own belief system and most certainly do not follow the Jedi Council’s directives. Often, the term Gray would be used to describe a Jedi who did not agree with the Council, such as Qui-Gon Jinn. It was likely used as a negative term, but an actual Gray Jedi would be distanced from the Order entirely rather than operating within it.
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"Do or do not; there is no try."

"Do or do not" is a state of mind. It is a way to approach any type of action or challenge. If you go into a fight with the mindset of TRYING to win, you will most likely never succeed to the degree that you could if you go into a fight believing that you will, in fact, win.

You want to be doctor? Despite all of the hard work and time that goes into doing so, you do it. You do not just give it a try. You want to be a successful filmmaker or screenwriter? You do it. No matter what failures come about. No matter what odds are against you. You do it. You don't just give it a try. You just give it a try, then time will be your doom because you will fail. You do it. No matter how long it takes, no matter what you have to overcome, etc. You do it. It is a state of mind only the successful have, in any field or avenue. Sports, business, etc. The ones who prevail are the ones who "Do or do not."

"Try" gives one 'permission' to fail... or never put forth much (if any) effort at all. Seems like being 'gray' is another means of taking away the responsibilities and work in following the 'rules' of being a Jedi or a Sith. 'Gray' lets anyone be or do whatever they wish as they don't 'have to' follow the light or dark aspects but can pull a nice buffet and pick and choose what they want to believe, disagree with, follow or not. Being 'gray' is an easy 'out' so when one fails, they can say, "at least I tried...".
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Kol Drake replied the topic: Grey Jedi

So... less than two hours later and another thought comes to mind after watching a few episodes of Doctor WHO.

As humans, we like to label and pigeonhole everything in the proper place. We also tend to see things in 'either/or' -- hence stories which are 'light' versus 'dark'. We tend to want stories and adventures about 'good/light' against 'evil/dark' -- and cheer when the 'good guys' win and the 'bad guys' fail. Light triumphs over darkness; order prevails over chaos.

But, really -- we, as humans, are never 'pure good / Light' nor 'absolute evil / Dark' (though some might think of a few who came close to either extreme). Instead, we all tend to be in that great expanse of 'somewhere in between'... so, we are all gray to some degree or another. Some a touch more on the 'light' side and some with a touch more of 'dark'.

Does that mean the lighter 'gray' are all angels and the darker grays all evil SOBs? I don't think so. Just means we are all trying to cope with Life and Living and working it out hour by hour the best we know how. And in the coping, we sometimes waiver back and forth across the center line of 'middle gray'. I suppose we could call it 'the Middle Path'.

"Middle" to mean neutral, upright, and centered. It should mean to investigate and penetrate the core of life and all things with an upright, unbiased attitude. In order to solve a problem, we should position ourselves on neutral, upright and unbiased ground. We investigate the problem from various angles, analyze the findings, understand the truth thoroughly, and find a reasonable conclusion.

Guess that makes it more like a Buddhist concept. The Middle Path in Buddhism does not mean having a biased view or superficial understanding only. The "Middle Path" represents a distinct theory and way of Buddhist practice that is not common to other religions. Buddhism is a practice with high moral values. It lays great emphasis on human thought and action in dealing with the natural environment, society or individual problems. It is concerned with the relationship between thoughts and behavior, and the relationship between behavior and its consequences.

So.. perhaps being 'gray' is something to consider as being smarter than the extremes (or absolutes) of Light and Dark?
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Jax replied the topic: Grey Jedi

It seems to me that people look at gray because they completely misunderstand the light path (because most people are oversimplifying it and haven't actually walked it enough to see the subtleties within it). So, if you start with a misunderstanding of light and dark, you'll end up with gray to try to reconcile the misunderstandings. In my experience walking the light path, there's no need for the gray path. The light path isn't fluffy bunnies and puppies. It isn't about following strict rules. As you'll see with the new courses, the light path as trained here is going to look a lot more gray compared to others. It's about finding the awareness of what is necessary in a situation - which may not seem 'light' on the surface. An example would be looking at tough love in life. Many people think being nice would be light, but in that process they become enablers who are actually allowing darkness to thrive instead of being aware of what would be the greatest contribution. Using tough love when appropriate dispels darkness and increases the light in the world. That's true lightness. But for those who don't understand that they may see the actions as gray. Does that make some sense?

Rather than worrying about the labels right now, since you've recently returned, I would ask that you dive into the Jedi Studies course, then review the topic after and see if you have gained an increased awareness on it. My perspective is just mine, you might disagree with it completely. :-) You are asking useful questions, don't stop asking questions and exploring. Hopefully Kol and I could provide some new perspectives to play with.
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Brandel Valico replied the topic: Grey Jedi

Grey Jedi , Shadow Jedi, Rainbow and multi-colored Jedi are all to be honest simply ways for people to change the Jedi path to fit themselves instead of changing themselves to fit the Jedi Path.

In the end as Jax has said the "Light" path is all ready open enough to encompass all these and every other variation you can think of. Honestly even the Dark Jedi for the most part are actually able to fit easily within the "Light" aspect of the Jedi path.

All to often people think the Jedi path is about your actions and the energy you tap into, while these do have to do with it, they aren't what actually make one a Jedi. What makes one a Jedi is study and application and acceptance of the Jedi path as the chosen path you will walk your life by. It's honestly very rare to encounter true Jedi. Just as it's very rare to encounter true followers of any way of life. Yes, there are many in any walk of life that claim to follow it and often seem to do so. Yet more often then not what they are actually doing is walking their own path and simply calling it or claiming it is the same as another. This doesn't mean their path may not parallel the path they claim to walk in many ways . It's also not a condemnation of them or their path.

Let me give an example I often encounter in my own life. I often get visits by Mormons and Jehovah's Witness as well as other groups of Christians. I often ask them a simple question. "Have you read the Bible cover to cover?" Most say they haven't. The few who say they do usually end up admitting later they lied when I start asking them questions and they eventually seem to all say the same thing. I don't think I ever read that (or a similar phrase) at which time I ask them again if they have read it cover to cover. This is when they see the mistake. I do the same think to politicians when they call asking for my vote. I ask if they know the Bill of Rights.

Now the above isn't to badmouth Christians I've had this same conversation with people of other faiths also. The results are almost always the same most have never actually even read the book or books they claim to follow.

So why is this important to the Jedi and how does it have anything to do with this topic. Well simply the same is true of most Jedi. Yes, we don't have a book or books that most agree are the core of our teachings. Yet like the above people most of those who claim to follow the Jedi path honestly know very little about it. They themselves have never taken the time to delve into it completely and "Read the book cover to cover" so to speak. Instead they simply live their lives as they want to live them. Never changing anything about themselves. Instead they seek to change the very path they claim to follow by ignoring the things they dislike while over focusing on the things they do. Sometimes even flat out changing things completely.

To be a Jedi requires a deep commitment and time (I still advocate/ adhere to a 30 year system myself LOL) It requires the person to change to fit the path not the other way around. I used to be involved in a testing process for Knighthood at a few sites and I often asked a similar question to perspective Knights as the questions above. I asked them to tell me the difference in how a student/padawan/adept/etc... applies the Jedi code to how a Knight does so. I asked that question of easily over a hundred, probably even over two hundred, people. Only a handful got it right. While many were still given Knighthood I voted against all of them except that handful.

It all comes down to as Jax again :meditate pointed out the biggest issue is most misunderstand what a Jedi is some outright have no desire to understand it.

Okay enough of my rant.

Lets look at your 4 points

1. Balance- grey Jedi claim to be focused on preserving balance between dark and light, some even claim to be a balance between Jedi and Sith. However by remaining in a state of always trying to keep this balance wouldn’t that take most or all of your focus? How will anyone be able to be of any real use if their invest everything in preserve balance? (I actually believed that being a grey Jedi is to be imbalanced, and trying to gain balance. So this title for me expresses the imperfection and flaws I carry with me).

With time keeping a balance would become easier honestly. Most things do with practice. So while it would at first take most of your focus eventually it would take less and less. Thats honestly not the issue nor is it trying to gain balance when imbalanced. Both can be accomplished while still being in the "Light" Jedi aspect. This sadly for most is simply a way to "get away" with bending the path to fit themselves.

2. Moral relativism – I personally don’t believe in this idea, I think there are a lot of acts that are universally understood as bad or even evil. Claiming that because it is a part of a culture is racism at its purest form. Because it claims that they not only don’t need to change but that they can't. Educations should be available to anyone and so does the basic right to live free. We need to stop romanticize the idea of culture is an absolute static factor and instead look at culture as an ever changing and evolving part of life. With the ability to change according to universal changes around the world.

It seems you have already found where you stand on this. While I might disagree on a few things. It would be arguing semantics and nothing actually major.

3. Good vs. evil- some claim to know what is evil we first must know what is good. This would be correct in theory but not so much in practice. In order for people to want to be good and add kindness and compassion to the world they need to want to do it. Claiming that there must be evil in the world so there be good is wrong; Because in my opinion evil or darkness is a self-maintaining machine and as long as there is injustice and inequality there will always be people who are willing to do bad things. The same goes for good or light, as long as there is compassion, education and freedom of speech there will always be people willing to do good things but good and evil do not shadow one another. Ying and yang as some people to use for an example for this idea is misinterpreted. The way I understand it NOT two opposites but two that complete each other. Evil doesn’t complete good; it just amplifies how complicated life is.

I tend to use selfless and selfish myself. I don't care about the actual action or the outcome when looking at a person being good/bad. I care about that persons core (often hidden sometimes even from themselves) core motivation for doing something/anything. If it's selfish it's bad. If it's selfless it's good.


An example I have used before is that of driving down the road and seeing a car broke down on the side with a flat and an elderly (they don't need to be elderly but for some reason it seem to work better if they are for the people hearing it) couple. Now if you stop and help them change their tire. This is where the reason you do so comes in. If you do so thinking or desiring a reward even if it's a simple thank you or a good/positive feeling about yourself. If you leave and it bugs you later that they didn't give you one also. Your action though beneficial to the old couple is selfish and thus bad.
If you help them and then leave with no thought of reward even if you do receive one be it anything from a positive feeling up to being included in their will. Then your action is selfless thus good.
The core motivation is the key. Not the justifications and half truths we tend to hide behind.

4. The easy path- There is no such thing as an easy path. We don’t know how a person choose to his\ hers path therefore saying someone is taking the easy path is an insult. Although some of us choose to not deal with their issues and that is way it may seem though their lives are easier but there is nothing harder than carrying your problems. Some people are just not ready to deal with them. That moment is when kindness is at its best use. That is when listening and understand becomes a form of teaching.

:ponder I honestly am unsure how this is an argument for or against the Grey path. So I have no real response to this.

HOMO SUM HUMANI A ME NIHIL ALIENUM PUTO
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Volund Starfire replied the topic: Grey Jedi

The Gray Jedi is a look at balance, much like the fictional Je’daii in the comics. They wish to understand the Force, both light and dark, and set themselves as a balance between the two extremes. It is more of a natural state than following one to the exclusion of the other.

I can see the appeal for those who are trying to come to terms with their own inner demons. It is less a moral relativism and more of a way to express the benefits and detriments of use vs. abuse of emotional power. It is the view of the Force as a tool rather than as light and darkness.

In truth, we see it as light and dark based on our perceptions. A knife, like the Force, can be used to both heal and harm depending on how it is being used. I feel this is the position of the Gray Jedi. They seek balance within themselves and seek to spread this balance around themselves.
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