Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

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replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

Oh well fine then!  *sniff*  Beral and I will go shopping while everyone else does... something else.  (Beral's wife sounds like my kinda girl!!!)  You look HOT Beral!

This "empowerment" thing is absolutely spot-on.  But let's make sure it empowers both ways?  I run pilot shops.  Not that girlie.  I work in a warehouse and run the business.  Not that girlie.  When I'm home I'm pretty darn girlie (unless I have to fix something).

I've sanded floors, done drywall, done major work on all my businesses.  I do a rather masculine job in a rather masculine business.  I have to be able to tell pilots why this software is better for learning the 757 interactive schematics than the other while repairing the wheels on their luggage.

We just have different approaches.  It isn't disempowering.  I've already said my brother prefers the more feminine things in life - and yes he's gay - but what difference should that make?

Jax - you are right about people in the closet.  But it isn't just older people and I must say I'm surprised to hear younger women still talking about gender issues in such a way.  (I had far less opportunity for equality - in fact I was the first "girl editor" of my high school newspaper in 1980 after 120 years...and played on the boy's socker team - and was one of those who did a bit of trail blazing - forcing the school to make a girl's team the year after I left.  (I don't even like soccer that much - and wasn't very good but I could kick well.)

Still I was considered "girlie".  You don't have to play a role.  Just do it - or not - as needed or desired?

Beral and I may like clothes (make-up kills my skin - but lipstick is a good friend) and I may love to please people by making a nice surrounding for them...and I make quite a bit of money doing so.  (Businesses need those skills - as do people - I hope we are not looking down on such skills?)

People expect you to partner up.  Do I do it?  NO.  You can't imagine the pressure laid on me to marry.  (Still do...ugh).  Society is changing as fast as I think it can.  Still has a long way to go.

But let's not make people a dinosaur because they like to be what is labeled femmie and happen to be women.  Or manly and happen to be men?  (Are there words in our lexicon to describe being girlie or femmie or manly/masculine other than gender-oriented labels?)

It takes all kinds to make a world. 

***I'll tell you one thing - until women make the same salary or wages as men - none of this is going to mean a darn thing towards "empowerment".  Or child care is not considered a "gender issue" along with other issues.  Or teachers and nurses continue to make less than garbage men or construction workers.  Even - and especially? - the unionized workers.

Those are the real core issues in my opinion.







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Jax replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

That's why I said, if a girl wants to wear pink, or even a boy, it's ok so long as it's what they actually want.  It's about freedom to be who you are, whether that fits the roles or not.  People will be much happier that way because they will accept themselves and accept others.  Pipe dream?  probably, but I can still hold out hope for growth in society.
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Brandel Valico replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

Hmmm... Just to probably stir the pot.

All those who hate Disney do to the portrayal of women as the weaker fems. To the Prince Charming types.

Whats your takes on shows such as Mulan?

Never been a big fan of Disney in the Fairy tale movies myself Not because I feel they portray women in a bad light. After all those lights may reflect true for some.

But basically because I always considered it odd  that they dumbed down what were very interesting stories for the masses.

HOMO SUM HUMANI A ME NIHIL ALIENUM PUTO
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Icarus replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

  You look HOT Beral!


Amen!

Beral and I may like clothes (make-up kills my skin - but lipstick is a good friend) and I may love to please people by making a nice surrounding for them...and I make quite a bit of money doing so.  (Businesses need those skills - as do people - I hope we are not looking down on such skills?)


Asta,

I do hope that you haven't taken anything that I have said as being derogatory. I haven't meant it that way. I support women that actually like doing the more "feminine" things. If that is what they really are about, then I say, Go For It, Girl! I just don't like women doing these things because they feel like they have to, that they will be rejected by society if they branch out a bit. It makes it hard on everyone. In some ways, I have found myself envious of women that truly are feminine and delicate. Men tend to try to take care of them, and see to them a bit more. With me, well... I couldn't get help from a man if I begged for it. They'd think that I was screwing with them in some way.  :rofl:  But, really, there are times when I want to be taken care of, but that doesn't seem to come along in the "tomboy" package. I deal with, and I'm fine with it. It's selfish to want anything more than what I have anyway. :P Still... I think that women that really are these typical princess types (nothing negative in that statement) might have it a bit better some times. Sometimes not.

Either way, it's about being true to yourself. That's the part we all have to play. If we are not, then... what's the point?

***I'll tell you one thing - until women make the same salary or wages as men - none of this is going to mean a darn thing towards "empowerment".  Or child care is not considered a "gender issue" along with other issues.  Or teachers and nurses continue to make less than garbage men or construction workers.  Even - and especially? - the unionized workers.

Those are the real core issues in my opinion.


They are, but why does society accept them as rules for our society? These values are taught to us in so many ways.

Now, let me also say that I do not hate Disney. I do not hate Fairy Tales. I am not a FemiNazi. Really, I'm not. I just think it's time that we stress a bit more open mindedness in our culture. And even with that, I'm actually pretty conservative. I am not PC. I am not open to just anything that may come my way. I hate Hillary Clinton. :P But, I see these gender role/assignments as something so easy to change-for those that wish to do this.

Brandel, you bring Mulan up. I actually love that movie. It's based on stereotypes of all kinds, and it is hysterical!
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replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

Oh Goodness Icarus!  I would never be upset by the discussion here.

Yes - it is easier being girlie sometimes - but it's even better to know you have to be self-sufficient.  (I am a loner - I don't always want help).

Right now due to history we are still using the "terms" girlie/femmie/princess - and I haven't seen one that really takes it's place that isn't gender oriented.

I don't suppose we will until people and "things" that have been considered a woman's domain are valued the same and paid the same as people and "things" that are considered a man's domain.

For my part - I think Walt Disney/Disneyworld/MickeyMouse and the whole bunch are sometimes sweet time capsules, and sometimes quite educational. 

Let me say that compaired to when I was a little girl in the 60's - things have changed a great, great deal.  More than people even 5 years younger than me could know!!!

(How many of you are shown with white gloves and little hat on for church in your childhood photos?)

I happened just before the social revolution...and grew up during it.  MUCH has changed and continues so...  Except for economically. 

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Icarus replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

Speaking of stereotypes and the like... I found this during one of my classes. I thought a few of you might like it. Just...keep in mind... this is humor.... sort of.

By Judy Syfers (1971)

(Note: This classic piece of feminist humor appeared in the premier issue of Ms. Magazine and was widely circulated in the women's movement.)

I belong to that classification of people known as wives. I am A Wife.
And, not altogether incidentally, I am a mother. Not too long ago a male friend of mine appeared on the scene fresh from a recent divorce. He had one child, who is, of course, with his ex-wife. He is looking for another wife. As I thought about him while I was ironing one evening, it suddenly occurred to me that I too, would like to have a wife. Why do I want a wife?
I would like to go back to school so that I can become economically independent, support myself, and if need be, support those dependent upon me. I want a wife who will work and send me to school. And while I am going to school I want a wife to take care of my children. I want a wife a wife to keep track of the children's doctor and dentist appointments. And to keep track of mine, too. I want a wife to make sure my children eat properly and are kept clean. I want a wife who will wash the children's clothes and keep them mended. I want a wife who is a good nurturing attendant to my children, who arranges for their schooling, makes sure that they have an adequate social life with their peers, takes them to the park, the zoo, etc. I want a wife who takes care of the children when they are sick, a wife who arranges to be around when the children need special care, because, of course, I cannot miss classes at school. My wife must arrange to lose time at work and not lose the job. It may mean a small cut in my wife's income from time to time, but I guess I can tolerate that. Needless to say, my wife will arrange and pay for the care of the children while my wife is working.

I want a wife who will take care of my physical needs. I want a wife who will keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended, replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals,serve them pleasantly, and then do the cleaning up while I do my studying. I want a wife who will care for me when I am sick and sympathize with my pain and loss of time from school. I want a wife to go along when our family takes a vacation so that someone can continue care for me and my when I need a rest and change of scene. I want a wife who will not bother me with rambling complaints about a wife's duties. But I want a wife who will listen to me when I feel the need to explain a rather difficult point I have come across in my course of studies. And I want a wife who will type my papers for me when I have written them.

I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who take care of the baby-sitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends. I want a wife who will have arranged that the children are fed and ready for bed before my guests arrive so that the children do not bother us. I want a wife who takes care of the needs of my quests so that they feel comfortable, who makes sure that they have an ashtray, that they are passed the hors d'oeuvres, that they are offered a second helping of the food, that their wine glasses are replenished when necessary, that their coffee is served to them as they like it. And I want a wife who knows that sometimes I need a night out by myself.

I want a wife who is sensitive to my sexual needs, a wife who makes love passionately and eagerly when I feel like it, a wife who makes sure that I am satisfied. And, of course, I want a wife who will not demand sexual attention when I am not in the mood for it. I want a wife who assumes the complete responsibility for birth control, because I do not want more children. I want a wife who will remain sexually faithful to me so that I do not have to clutter up my intellectual life with jealousies. And I want a wife who understands that my sexual needs may entail more than strict adherence to monogamy. I must, after all, be able to relate to people as fully as possible.

If, by chance, I find another person more suitable as a wife than the wife I already have, I want the liberty to replace my present wife with another one. Naturally, I will expect a fresh, new life; my wife will take the children and be solely responsible for them so that I am left free.
When I am through with school and have a job, I want my wife to quit working and remain at home so that my wife can more fully and completely take care of a wife's duties.

My God, who wouldn't want a wife?




And then, from the male perspective:

I am not a husband. I am, however, a male, and have a father who is a husband. I am also fortunate enough to know a great many men who are husbands and will probably become a husband myself one day.

I recently read Judy Syfers’ essay “Why I Want a Wife” and decided a reply was in order. Though not the most qualified author for such an undertaking, I felt it is my duty to make an effort. For I now realize that just as Judy Syfers wants a wife, I want a husband.

I want a husband who brings home the bacon. I mean really rakes in the bucks. After all, I certainly can’t have any less than the best. My husband must be driven to succeed; he must climb the corporate ladder quickly and efficiently. He must make every payroll and meet every deadline. Anything less would be completely unacceptable.

And I want a husband who bears the burden of being the wage earner without complaint. He must deal with the stresses of his job without bringing his problems home from the office so as not to upset me. I want a husband who deals patiently and lovingly with screaming, fighting kids even after a tough day. I want a husband, who, for fairness sake, does the dishes (even sometimes the wash) for me so that I can put my feet up after dinner. And, I want a husband who will leave the office during a busy day of work o check on a sick child while I’m out on the town shopping.

I want a husband who will gladly eat cold leftovers for a week while I am relaxing with a friend in sunny California. My husband will have to sit through PTA meetings and ice-cream socials after a rough day at work. My husband must, of course, be courteous and kind to meddling, gossiping friends. (After all, I am entitled to my friends too.) I want a husband who listens patiently to my panic about the over-sudsing washing machine while he silently sweats the thousands of dollars he just borrowed from the bank.

I want a husband who keeps the house and lawn looking beautiful in his spare time. He must be willing to spend his Saturday afternoons weeding my garden, and he must give up that tee time with the guys when I decide that the grass is a little too long. I want one who makes sure the car is fixed (engines are so complicated and dirty!) and takes care of all of the “little” chores around the house-raking the leaves in fall, shoveling snow in the winter, painting the house in the spring. And I want one who will take out the garbnage. When he’s done with these chores, he can take the kids to the zoo or park or the ballgame because these things a father should share with his children.

I want a husband who gladly pays for his wife’s shopping sprees without ever asking her where the money goes. He will understand that women need to spend time with their friends. I want a husband who will watch the kids on vacation so my wife can shop and work on her tan. (He must accept the fact that after traveling so many miles, a shopping trip is the only way to wind down.)

And I want my husband to be completely receptive to my sexual needs. He must completely understand when I have a “headache.” He will be sensitive to my problems and respect my private life. I want a husband who understands that I must have my freedom. He will be ready to accept the possibility that I may need to find myself and may wlk out at any time. He will understand, of course, that I will take half of everything we own. He would keep the kids, however, because I would need to start a brand new life for myself.

I want a husband who will do these things for me forever or until I decide we have enough money to retire, or until he has a heart attack and collapses in a heap. Yes, I want a husband.

How could anyone live without one?
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inari replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

That's the sort of humour that makes me want to laugh on the one hand and cry on the other.

It's interesting to note that neither side wants the kids.

It is also interesting to point out the 'male' side of it, namely the 'breadwinning' aspect. I am not planning on going back to full time work any time soon, and I've mentioned to my husband several times (usually after he's had a whinge session about not having enough time) that I'd like to see us BOTH working part time, and living more simply and cheaply. I've found him fairly resistant to this idea, though with a little interest there too. I think this may be partly because it's such a 'new' idea for men who aren't semi-retired, and partly because he likes the way he lives right now. Hopefully, over time, both sexes will learn to take a chill pill and have more overlap not only in roles but in 'life rewards' if that's an appropriate term to use.
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Jax replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

That's a good point Inari.  Those are very selfish letters really.  I mean, there is a huge portion of me that can't wait to have kids.  For me it's not a feminine or masculine thing, but a human thing.  The desire for connection on a new level, to teach and learn in those unique child/parent relationships...of course it helps that we know two of our children are already waiting for us.  They're souls have contacted us in dream/astral states.  To have that connection become manifested on this plane will be awesome (and tiring and frustrating and all those other things that come with being a parent lol). 

I think these two letters talk about the two extremes of the gender roles, but they were the ideal of that time period.  It shows how it traps everyone into horribly confining roles.  What is also funny is that the guy chose to respond about a wife that is nothing at all like the wife described in the first letter.  Was that on purpose, or did he really  not understand her point.  It's quite possible that he didn't and was instead showing his own experiences rather than addressing the actual letter.  Makes me wonder now.  :-)

You know, I think it's time to shift this topic (or start a new one) to all the positive things that come from a life without the stress of gender roles, and how to overcome them.  Dwelling too much on the negative just creates more of it, rather than the positive change we all seek.  ;-)
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Beral Khan replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

I like makeup. :D  And shiny clothes.  And being a man.  I am enchanted by the beauty of the feminine.  I am happy to discuss poetry and go to counciling. 

I think being a strong man who isn't afraid of just being myself, I have been a role model for the thousands of kids, teens, and adults who attend the events I host.  I am very happy I can make a difference in peoples lives, simply by being me.  :obisaber

I used to trust my force of Will.
Now I trust in the will of the Force.

Jedi Communication? Well its removing assumptions, questioning the absolutes, and asking for clarity of statements.
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Icarus replied the topic: Re: Gender Roles and Fairy Tales

You know, I think it's time to shift this topic (or start a new one) to all the positive things that come from a life without the stress of gender roles, and how to overcome them.  Dwelling too much on the negative just creates more of it, rather than the positive change we all seek.  ;-)



Ok. I agree. Here's what I think is positive about being the way that I am:

-People can more easily identify with my different sides. Heck, there's one for everyone.  :D

-I do not have to meet any expectations.

-I do not have to worry about all of the fussy stuff that would go along with that.

-I have more opportunities presented to me because I am not restricted.

-It allows me to look beneath the surface of people to see who they really are.

-I do not have to act.

-I can be true.

-I can enjoy being me without having to wonder if it is moral or right because well... to me, it's mostly all moral and right. ;)

-Most of all though, I can shift. I can be what is needed when it is needed and I do not have to care if anyone likes it but me. :)

I am enchanted by the beauty of the feminine.


Yes, I suppose that I am too. Although, I am also enchanted by the masculine. There is so much beauty in both that it will take your breath away if you actually take it all in. Gosh.... I really love life sometimes.
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